Small stuff hand: A preflop value raise whiffs

[bdk3clash]

A few months ago, Arkady pointed out that while we often fixate on the huge, sexy hands that win or lose us multiple BBs, by definition we play a lot more unsexy, routine, boring hands, so it's probably more worthwhile to discuss the situations that come up more frequently to make sure we're at least thinking about them properly.

Anyway, here's a relatively unsexy hand. If the top end of the sexy hand scale is a "bdk3clash," then this one is an "SFer." Comments on each street appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: bdk3clash is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">bdk3clash raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">bdk3clash bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, bdk3clash calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
bdk3clash checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, bdk3clash...

[jrobb83]

This is a check-fold for me.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a check-fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop or on the turn? I'm interested in comments on my flop play in particular.

[Tosh]

I do not bet this flop. I would be thinking of check raising an LP bet, or check calling for 1 EP bet after several calls.

[jrobb83]

Sorry, I'll be clear this time.

I'll bet that flop every time, and it is definately worth a call once raised.

I check-fold on the turn. You are getting 13-1, but you no longer have the backdoor draws, and you have to assume you are drawing to an A which may or may not be good. And even if your J draws are live, they also may or may not be good.

[Nate tha' Great]

Check and call if it's one bet back to you.

[sublime]

I'll bet that flop every time, and it is definately worth a call once raised.

Every time you bet that flop you are losing money.

[turnipmonster]

I think betting is ok only if there's a chance you take it down. against 5 players I think that is unlikely, so if I am not going to take it down I'd rather pay 1 bet with a 4.5 outer than 2 bets. the ideal situation is a bet from LP which could be a 4 or 8 or something you are drawing pretty live against.

--turnipmonster

[jrobb83]

Thank you. I'll have to re-evaluate what hands I'll bet with after I raise pre-flop. Bet if both cards were overcards?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. I'll have to re-evaluate what hands I'll bet with after I raise pre-flop. Bet if both cards were overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you can probably bet if you have two overcards plus your backdoor draws. In that case you don't mind quite as much if it costs you two bets to see the turn.

[Tosh]

It would still be nice to have some auto bet people in LP to check raise even with 2 overs IMO.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
It would still be nice to have some auto bet people in LP to check raise even with 2 overs IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that play tend to produce a good result for you? It's not something that's really in my reporitoire.

[jrobb83]

Why would you be more likely to go for the check-rase with 1 rather than 2 overs?

[balkii]

if the bet comes from late position it is more likely that the bettor does not have the top pair, effectively giving you more outs (the Js).

EDIT: this is worded kinda funny. he's more likely to C/R with only 1 overcard because he is more likely to check the flop. if the bet happens to come from LP, then a checkraise becomes a viable option. with 2 overs, he is more likely to just pound the flop the first time.

[Tosh]

Its not like it comes up a lot and I have brilliant results with, it just seems a logical play IMO. Just one of those, 'increase chances of winning a biggish pot' thangs.

EDIT: I prefer it to betting if I can get an LP bet.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would still be nice to have some auto bet people in LP to check raise even with 2 overs IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that play tend to produce a good result for you? It's not something that's really in my reporitoire.

[/ QUOTE ]

from a guy who checkraises a 4 flush river with straight, this is surprising to hear...

[sublime]

Thank you. I'll have to re-evaluate what hands I'll bet with after I raise pre-flop. Bet if both cards were overcards?

Yeah what Nate said.

After raising preflop its important to evauluate how the value of your hand has changed.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would still be nice to have some auto bet people in LP to check raise even with 2 overs IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that play tend to produce a good result for you? It's not something that's really in my reporitoire.

[/ QUOTE ]

from a guy who checkraises a 4 flush river with straight, this is surprising to hear...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, was that from the 2+2 table? Was that against you? Did you call that shiznit down with a no-flush? You are supposed to be a good player, so you are supposed to bet your non-nut flush for value and then lay it down when I raise your ass. LAG IT UP!!!!!!!!!

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. I'll have to re-evaluate what hands I'll bet with after I raise pre-flop. Bet if both cards were overcards?

Yeah what Nate said.

After raising preflop its important to evauluate how the value of your hand has changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree completely. I'm just so used to betting with a hand I would call with I continue to do so in aggressive online games blissfully ignoring the strong possibility of a raise.

And btw, thanks all of you for answering my questions.

[justin]

i like the value raise but id check the flop and feel it out. Your up against a big field ur not bullying anyone out and you do have an over as well as back door.

[StellarWind]

The backdoors are good so I would check and call one bet.

I don't see much point in checkraising an LP bettor. It's expensive because you don't have much equity in this pot. Most people who bet this flop into five opponents including a PFR are likely to have a pair, even from LP. Since you probably need to improve, how much are you helping yourself by forcing weak hands out? It's not worth the money. You probably do almost as well by letting them contribute to the pot.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
If the top end of the sexy hand scale is a "bdk3clash," then this one is an "SFer."

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't seen me in full bondage mode; I'm dead seeeexy. Fold the turn.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, here's a relatively unsexy hand. If the top end of the sexy hand scale is a "bdk3clash," then this one is an "SFer."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even want to go there.

[ QUOTE ]
Comments on each street appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop: Fine.

Flop: Betting out into thismany opponents when you are almost certainly drawing makes no sense to me. I would check and then either call or possibly check-raise if the bet came from LP and I thought it was an auto-bet.

Turn: Check-fold.

[Kaz The Original]

This is one of the better threads I have read in a while.

[bdk3clash]

This hand is a few days old, but in case anyone was curious I folded the turn.