JJ hand - not liking my poor play, but not sure what to do

[btspider]

Table was a nice loose-passive table.. both villians seemed to be in a decent number of hands (but not > 60%). The players I had good notes on folded PF.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

At least I have position on these guys. Cap or cold-call and see if UTG+2 caps?

Flop: (17 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Wait until the turn to raise or see what MP3 thinks of his hand? He 3-bet, call that at least.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

No surprise, he bet the turn. I don't expect a raise behind, so I may still be good or spike a set. I should probably raise here to try to fold UTG+1's possible AK, correct?

River: (18.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Take the free showdown? I was just glad this hand was over since I felt lost starting with that PF decision /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Final Pot: 18.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 18.50 BB, between UTG+1, MP3, Hero and SB.</font>

[Quercus]

With just two in ahead of me and both raising, I fold this preflop from the CO.

Sad, but true.

[mctommy015]

I'd probably be capping preflop, I don't think I'd ever fold JJ preflop at party 1/2 unless I had good notes on a rock type of player.

[Quercus]

I've found the average low limit Party player to be loose but passive. They don't seem to have loose raising standards though. Unless I've got some read on them that suggests otherwise, I typically respect raises since they have to overcome natural timidity to make them.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
With just two in ahead of me and both raising, I fold this preflop from the CO.

Sad, but true.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was thinking that would be prudent. i'd be hoping for two sets of overcards or one overcard hand and one underpair. with no one else in the pot yet, i wonder if this is a profitable preflop call (or cap). QQ would be playable. TT would be a fold. JJ is in that mystery zone sometimes.

after reconsideration, here's what i think:
fold preflop
call the flop (with intent to raise most turns)
raise the turn
river? maybe bet. i think MP3 has an overpair and was concerned about the top flop card pairing.

I'll post results in the morning.

[btspider]

results:
SB - A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG+1 - A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP3 - A/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero - JJ

MHIG

i think the fold PF, call flop, raise turn line is good.. but the river bet seems rather thin.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the fold PF, call flop, raise turn line is good.. but the river bet seems rather thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is crazy in my book. When it's checked to you on the river, do you really think an overpair to the board is out anymore? The way MP3 played his hand is similar to how I'd expect someone to stubbornly play AK on this kind of board. Maybe not the flop 3-bet, but when they all check to you on the river, I think it's crystal clear you could have the best hand.

I like the call flop, raise the turn line personally.

[Nottom]

Fold or Cap, cold-calling is the worst option IMO.

I think calling the flop is good, I think raisieng the turn would be good.

I'm really confused on the river, with 3 other players I think you need to bet, but I'm not really sure.


Edit: Bah, yes I am sure.

[InchoateHand]

I am trying to unlearn capping with JJ. Unless the Button CC's you have position, which is what you want, and even if you cap, the flop is highly unlikely to be checked to you.
I actually think this is the 1 per 2500 hands where you can CC PF, though capping wouldn't be horrible. I do not agree to folding PF, whatsoever. As someone said yesterday, CC and call it a guilty pleasure.

[jar]

If you're going to cold call for guilty pleasure, why not cap?

[InchoateHand]

Because capping with jacks is not necessarily something you want to do. This depends entirely on your opponents. I said "call it a guilty pleasure," not "indulge a guilty pleasure" which would probably be something more akin to capping every street.

[MagicRat]

I probably would have in that instant raised the Flop too but I believe calling the Flop and then raising the Turn is the optimal play.

A situation like this is discussed in Ed's book and if I understand it correctly, with the pot so large already (18 sb before your turn to act), a raise isn't making anyway go away and actually hurts you by building the pot because now that pesky pair will have the odds to stick around for the river too.

But if you just call the Flop there's 10.5 BBs heading into the Turn. If MP3 then bets and you raise you make the remainder of the players decide whether 6.75/1 (13.5 BBs) is good enough odds for them to call. Sound reasonable??

[Nottom]

I think there other JJ hand was a much better CC-ing opportunity. I would tend to just fold in this spot unless I had reasons to think my opponents are raising light. Typical players have a very small 3-betting range, and JJ doesn't match up to well against those hands.

[cnfuzzd]

i have found the average low limit party player to be about as passive as a 16 year old in a whore house. Not only that, but these people dont understand the nature of dominated hands, so AQ-AT are all hands to 3bet, as often pocket pairs are. At 3/6 i would fold this pf, but at 1/2 im capping.

peace

john nickle

[edthayer]

While it's true that low limit players often go crazy with bad hands, they are equally likely to be dealt a premium hand as anyone else. You should be concerned about the range of hands they would bet and raise with, not just their minimum raising requirements.

[cnfuzzd]

I agree wholeheartedly. However, i think JJ can beat a high percentage of the range of hands that most micro party players will 3-bet with. Sorry i didnt verbalize my thinking more.

peace

john nickle