Is this a normal feeling transitioning to shorthanded play?

[gabuk]

Hi all,

I recently switched to shorthanded play (on PokerStars) just last Thursday/Friday.

I transferred from PartyPoker after taking a week long beating of losing to both river "chasers" and poor play. I regrouped myself, won some back and moved money into PokerStars. I don't see myself going back to PartyPoker because my mind isn't quite prepared for the massive swings (I know this is something I need to work on if I want to play Poker for a longterm).

So far, I really dig PokerStars. The majority of players are somewhat smarter/tighter and friendlier.

So, I decided to try the .5/1, 1/2 and 2/4 full ring tables. Won some, lost some but nothing exciting. Much tighter and less frustrating than PartyPoker.

However, something clicked in my head. The full ring tables were full so I decided to try a shorthanded table. OMG! This is what I now call fun poker. The sheer amount of hands and quick play (I play the fast time tables) were what I needed all along.

I know it's an anomoly but I had the biggest winning weekend of poker ever (over 100 BB). I also learned a bunch of things I didn't quite apply on full ring tables due to lack of confidence. I was able to play more aggressively (and feel I played "smarter"), protect my blinds, c/r more on the flop and turn, pre-flop raise more (my p/f raise on full ring was 4.8% percent). I have now doubled p/f raise percentage (considering I raise a lot more since less people are playing and that was expected but mentally I feel stronger with these raises).

I imported the weekend's stats in PokerTracker and although it's a smaller sample (only 1.2k vs. 10k on full ring), I just feel better about how I am playing. It's not so much with winning but it's the things I am learning. Shorthanded play has taught me to be more aggressive, defend more and sum up a situation quicker. I have no idea why I couldn't apply these techniques in full ring play. Maybe it's just me and "winning" is blocking out the negatives (clouding my vision) but I want to believe I am starting to go from fish to newbie =).

If anyone has similar feedback or thoughts, I would love to hear them.

I plan on starting to post my HH for help.

Looking forward to being part of the shorthand club (not bus, lol).

Thanks,
Gabuk

[Rah]

It sounds like you've had some weak/tight tendencies which have been cured by the nature of shorthanded games. The tactics you talk about are advocated in SSH as well and it's great that you now are learning why these tactics are more lucrative than the weak/tight ones. SH is great - I hate playing against a full table of LAGs as well, because of the huge swings. In shorthanded games, it's easier being in control since the LAGs are fewer.

[bicyclekick]

10% pfr is way too low for shorthanded.
4.5% pfr for full tables is way too low.

[gabuk]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Bicyclekick, thanks for alerting me of my PFR. I hear/read both should be doubled for ring and SH play. Is this correct?

I went back and spent a few hours looking over HH and discovered I was limping way too much with mid-pocket pairs, AXs, KXs, etc. and not raising enough when it was down to 2-3 players. This is a major flaw I need to fix.

It dawned me that instead of limping, I should have raised to show pre-flop strength. In fact, looking over the HH, the hands that I won could have increased the pots if the others called or I could have outright stolen. Even those hands I lost, I should have raised pre-flop to maintain an aggressive and not weak table image.

Thanks again everyone for the help.

Twoplustwo.com has made me a better newbie and I truly appreciate the help.

[balkii]

Congrats on the win, and welcome to the fun world of shorthanded play...but......

[ QUOTE ]
So far, I really dig PokerStars. The majority of players are somewhat smarter/tighter ...

[/ QUOTE ]


This doesn't make any sense. You should drop down in limits or be prepared to lose money (or both) until you lose this mindset.

Shorthanded play has extremely high variance, and I'm guessing the upside of that variance hit you over the head this weekend, which is why you feel like something clicked.


[ QUOTE ]
I plan on starting to post my HH for help.

[/ QUOTE ]

this should help.

[MisterKing]

(warning: thoughts of a relatively fellow new-ish SH player below - read at your own risk)

I detect some interesting things going on here, gabuk.

On the one hand, you're light years ahead of most low limit players in that you're keeping HH and importing them into PT. On the other hand, some of your comments carry an air of immaturity (not meant as a pejorative) about your approach to the game. On the whole, it sounds like you're applying yourself and putting in a lot of time at the tables, and surely you'll improve if you continue this. So welcome to the world of SH play...

You remark that your reason for leaving Party was "river 'chasers' and poor play." This is, IMO, a terrible reason to leave a game, a site, whatever. As Izmet Fekali says, "Stop whining about bad beats. Chips are floating your way in loose games (if you play goot), you just can't see it because of the variance muddying the waters." (more at http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/20) Bad players pay you with each suboptimal decision, assuming you're maintaining a +EV line yourself. So, when properly bankrolled and mentally prepared, you should welcome their mistakes, even if they cost you short term profits (e.g. individual pots).

By stating that you *prefer* PS because the play is "tighter/smarter," you make a second mistake closely related to your first: assuming that you'll have better results against better players. It is amazing to see players as skilled as seasoned pros make this same claim (Hellmuth, to an extent). It is, simply put, false. Your money, over the long run, comes from being relatively better than those at your tables. Even if you're a WCP, that in and of itself doesnt ensure profit. You need to be head and shoulders above those you play with.

Now, I pick up on something else in what you say that I do identify with a great deal: shorthanded tables allow greater "control" and fine-tuned decision making. This is why I prefer not to play full ring: profitable play is boring, not to mention volatile!! So on this point, I hear you loud and clear. As a recovering weak-tightie from full ring, short play has really driven home the fundamentals of better play by force. Defend your blinds with reasonable holdings, particularly HU. Pay close attention to what the *other* guy has and make decisions based on that as much as your own cards. Limping is (often) death. Raise, dammit! I could go on, but suffice to say, short play seems to me to be an excellent condensed version of hold 'em.

I've yet to get whacked by the inevitable shorthanded swings, but I know they're coming. Keep your bankroll over 300BB if you can (I personally would prefer 500BB), as lots of very good players here on 2+2 have experienced 100BB swings in 1000 hands on a regular basis, through no fault of their own. Like I was saying, short play magnifies everything, including cold streaks and poor decisions.

Post some hands, ask some questions, and log some hours. You'll feel great about your progress, if not the results as well.

I'll leave you with this question: what are you open-limping with these days?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
short play seems to me to be an excellent condensed version of hold 'em.


[/ QUOTE ]

My brain made a funny Freudian slip as I was reading that. I started looking away to something on the t.v. and thought I read you saying short-handed was a "combat version of holdem"!

[Blarg]

I feel like you do, and also have tremendous problems with being aggressive enough. It seems really hard for me to keep my PFR numbers up, though my VPIP isn't too bad really. But I just don't raise enough. Another big weakness of mine is blind defense.

But I'm finding that I'm already, in 10,500 hands of $1/2 6-max on Party, becoming much better at those numbers. My PFR still plunges down sometimes, and I need tons of work on that. I've had some hours of really dull cards that cut my PFR in half for an extended period, but it's got to be more than that because thousands of hands later I'm still well under 10%.

Anyway, like you, I'm finding it much much more fun than regular full games, and even though I have so far to go in becoming a good player, I feel like I'm making solid progress now. It's a great feeling! For the first time I'm getting some of the BB/100 and BB/hr numbers that I see others post all the time as if they're just the most natural thing in the world -- and they are, for them and not me. I feel a bit more like I'm joining the club now. I have been knocking at the door for 50,000 hands in full-ring games but have been met with icy silence, as I've been making under 1 BB/hr and losing every time I moved up.

I've got less than 11,000 new hands in 6-max now, so I know full well it's too early to draw conclusions I want to set in stone, but I do conclude that I'm having a good time for a change playing poker, and I finally seem to be learning a little instead of just hovering and wondering why my game isn't so hot and doesn't seem to be getting much better. I've been very frustrated lately, but I'm hoping I'm actually seeing some light at the end of the tunnel here now.

It's kind of a laugh, but I can almost feel myself getting more aggressive every day. But ... not foolishly, it feels. It's clearly appropriate in 6-max. And in my regular game, I could use a bit more cojones too.

Good luck to you! And the both of us. It looks like we both need to learn lessons short-handed seems to teach you relatively quickly. I hope we maintain the pace of learning!

[gabuk]

Hey Misterking!

Thanks for the great response. First off, I made a mistake in my first post (since corrected after reading your comments). I meant to say I left PartyPoker due to river chasers and "my bad play." I felt that if I went to a smarter site, I could learn more from better players (most likely losing some at the same time). I decided to take the same approach as when I competed in Street Fighter 2 tournaments and that I could only improve my game by playing better opponents. Sorry for the confusion.

But the thing that I really liked about your comments was that after you learn the basics, have the mental strength for the roller coaster swings and can make positive EV decisions, I should play against those less educated. I am hoping that I can return to PokerStars with a new found outlook and not get frustrated like before (this is where twoplustwo.com comes in).

And yes, I was/am a weak/tight player on PartyPoker. After 10k hands, PokerTracker had me listed as a rock, tight, passive, passive. I am hoping that my learning experiences on shorthanded play will allow me to play with the same confidence on full ring games.

To answer your question and I am sure I am way off, here's my criteria for limping and raising:

AA to 99 -- raise, and reraise. I may not reraise with 99 or 1010 depending my position, my opponent(s) and the table texture.

AKs to A8s -- raise, and reraise with AKs and AQs. Call with AJs to A8s.

Note, I only play A2s to A7s when I have a good read on the opponents and there hasn't been a ton of pre-flop raising.

AKo to A10o -- raise with AKo to AJo. Limp with A10o, raise if on the button or only one opponent. Fold A10o and sometimes AJo if there has been a pre-flop raise by a tight/smart player.

KQs to K10s -- raise pending position and pre-flop action. I do not like K10s that much and will tend to fold if a tight/strong player raises pre-flop.

88 to 22 -- raise with 88 to 55 if on button, one to two limpers or stealing the blinds.

Hope this is somewhat of a non-fish start. I am always willing to learn and truly appreciate feedback, both bad and good.

Thanks again for your time.
Gabuk

[gabuk]

Hey Blarg,

Sounds like we are going thru the same thing, lol. I imported another 400-500 hands last night and my PFR went up a percent. I haven't had a chance to read my HH but I do remember raising a bit more and acting aggressive without feeling like I was wasting money.

I will try to hit up PartyPoker this week and look you up on the 1/2 6 max.

Maybe we can play together, learn some new things and hopefully make some money /images/graemlins/ooo.gif.

My ID on PartyPoker is gabuk99.

Talk to you later!
Gabuk