JJ in BB Reraised and Out

[AliasMrJones]

Within the first couple hands of this session so no read on either player other than that they were quite loose PF. After the PF cap and 3-bet on the turn with CO calling the whole way and K on the board, I figured I was beat. How was my play up to this point and is this laydown time or did I make a big mistake?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: AliasMrJones is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $5.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">AliasMrJones 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, CO calls, AliasMrJones calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
AliasMrJones checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">AliasMrJones raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, AliasMrJones folds.

[jrobb83]

Calling the flop and spiking a jack on the turn is the correct play here.

Absent a jack, fold the turn.

EDIT:
I probably would have folded to the initial flop bet. Too weak tight?

[MoreWineII]

I think I like it. I think the only question, really, is do you fold for the original bet after UTG had capped PF or do you take a stab at it and then fold when 3-bet?

I lean towards the line you took. You might get a free turn card, and in the unlikliest of possibilities, UTG folds his QQ outright.

I wonder what that pesky CO is up to.

[jrobb83]

Once you raise and are 3-bet, especially with the CO coming along for every bit of it, you have the correct odds to call one more sb and hit your set on the turn.

I think the only question here is the raise of the inital bet, which I think is wrong.

UTG raised pf, then capped. If you are confident he would do this with AA-TT, and AK, then it's an easy fold to that bet. If you can widen his range of hands considerably, then raise the flop.

[MoreWineII]

How many outs are you giving hero? Let's assume, for a moment, that UTG doesn't have KK and rather has AK, QQ, AA. Two outs then, right? But is the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif really an out with CO coming right along?

[jrobb83]

CO has called two bets cold so many times during this hand that I don't think you can say he has a flush draw. He could have anything.

I think you have to give hero at least 1.75 outs, since even if CO makes his flush with the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you still have 10 outs to a better hand. Getting 22-1 immediate odds to spike your set, plus incredible implied odds since you know that UTG has a strong hand, plus CO doesn't seem to know where the fold button is. I think this makes the flop a clear call once you are 3-bet.

[esspo]

Pre-flop is fine.

Flop, I really don't like the checkraise as I don't see that it accomplishes anything useful. When I first read the post I missed the presence of the CO and ignoring the cut off I still don't like the check raise because you are giving UTG a chance to throw away a hand cheaply in the event you are ahead. Heads up against a tight player a check fold is correct. If you think UG raises light, then I like calling down as you give him/her a chance to bluff their money off. If you feel really strongly that UG had QQ and is tight enough to throw it away on the turn/river then it may be a good play (check-raising the turn is probably better in that spot), but how many PP 5/10 players are capable of making that lay down?

The presence of the CO turns this into a clear check-fold on the flop IMHO. Even if you think UG may be some flavor of idiot, what is CO calling with? If CO is the goober, then what is UTG so excited about. If they are both getting out of line, which is very unlikely, there are probably lots of cards that will help one of them overtake you. Assuming both players have some sense,either (a) one has at least a K and the other a flush draw giving you 1 out, which is vulnerable to a spade on the river, or (b) they both have a K or better in which case you have 2 outs and you still may be subject to a redraw if you spike the Js on the turn.

I read somewhere on this forum that poker is a game of situations. This situation sucks. Check-fold the flop and move on.

The way you played it folding to the 3-bet is fine. You are almost certainly behind UTG and CO's most likely hand is a flush draw.

[sthief09]

I'd fold the flop when it's one bet to you. raising is pointless. you have an UTG raiser/capper and a CO caller in here. there is a K on the board, and 2 spades. if you don't want to fold, then call. raising accomplishes NOTHING. it's just one of those bullshit information raises that doesn't buy you any information. you have red jacks on a Kxx all black two-tone board. if you're not holding the best hand now, you're probably not going to be on the river. UTG bets the turn about 100% of the time, so you're not getting a cheap showdown.

as far as I'm concerned you have 2 options: call down or fold the flop when it's one bet to you, and I'm not a fan of overcalling down here with 1 or 2 outs.

your flop raise is a perfect example of the misapplied aggression that I'm trying to get away from. it's good to be aggressive, but you have to recognize when you're beat. you lose so much money when you're betting and raising with a 5% chance of winning.

[esspo]

I agree that it may be possible that CO is the special kind of PP 5/10 player that would call all the way to the river with 8hJh. We don't have any information to suggest that here so we should conclude, imho, that CO most likely hands include a K or he has a flush draw.

Also, your conclusion that hero effecively has 1.75 outs doesn't take into account the possibility that UTG has KK.

That being said, there are a lot worse things than calling one more bet closing the action. I think a fold is correct and its not that close, but its not as bad as say... checkraising the flop in the first place.

[MoreWineII]

Ugh, yah I misread the hand. I didn't realize that hero check-raised. .

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, your conclusion that hero effecively has 1.75 outs doesn't take into account the possibility that UTG has KK.

That being said, there are a lot worse things than calling one more bet closing the action. I think a fold is correct and its not that close, but its not as bad as say... checkraising the flop in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't include that fact, but it's not a mathmetical assumption, just a seat of the pants guess which I think is about right. Including the possibility of KK does not change the number a great deal, as there are very few combinations of KK being dealt especially with the K on the flop.

I said I thought that folding to the initial bet was the most correct. But if you go for the check-raise for some reason, folding to the 3-bet getting 22-1 with the two big bet streets to come is clearly incorrect IMO.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, yah I misread the hand. I didn't realize that hero check-raised. .

[/ QUOTE ]


it makes no difference. the point is that he failed to realize that he had a good hand and it went to [censored]. there's no shame in mucking good preflop hands on the flop. people are big on not being weak-tight here. well, I'm starting to realize that a lot of the times being weak-tight is better than raising with JJ vs. an UTG raiser/capper on a Kxx all black two-tone board.

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to realize that a lot of the times being weak-tight is better than raising with JJ vs. an UTG raiser/capper on a Kxx all black two-tone board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a little trouble with this. One key to being successfully aggressive is to learn when it's ok to be weak tight.

[MoreWineII]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the check-raise is worse than a position raise intended to get hero a discounted turn card.

In any event, this is a terrible flop for hero and chances are, I'd take zero shots at it, but depending on my opponent(s) and position, I might be inclined to take *one*. Keep in mind, the games I play in are usually loose-passive to the extreme - games in which a flop raise virtually would assure me of a cheap turn card. I'm bending this example to suit my experiences, fairly or unfairly.

But I wouldn't raise the flop w/o position. Which, in my original misreading of the hand, I thought hero had.