Bush: Thoughts?

[SomethingClever]

Since political threads seem to be all the rage, I'll add another.

I personally don't know anyone that supports Bush. But I live in a pretty liberal city, so that's probably why.

Since I've never really had a chance to converse with a Bush supporter, I'm very curious as to how they stand on various issues.

1) Stem cell research: For it or against it? And why?
2) Iraq war: Your thoughts.
3) Gay marriage: For it or against it? And why?
4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing or bad thing?
5) The environment: To what extent should we be policing corporations for violations?
6) Taxes: How much is too much? How much is too little? Who should pay the most? The least?
7) Military experience: Required to lead our country?
8) Religion: Are you religious? Do your beliefs influence your politics?

A note to those who might hijack this thread with Kerry-bashing: I haven't mentioned Kerry. I just want to hear the thoughts of the pro-Bush population on these topics. Feel free to bash Kerry in another thread.

Further disclaimer: Here are my thoughts.

1) For it. Not for cloning purposes, but to treat genetic diseases.
2) I feel somewhat deceived by Bush's justification for the war, but also that we can't simply evacuate the country at this point.
3) For it. Why not?
4) Abso-fricken-lutely a good thing. Teach 'em how to use it, too.
5) Heavily
6) Fewer loopholes for the rich and for corporations. I don't mind paying more as long as I know it's not being wasted.
7) No, and I think it's ridiculous that such a big deal is being made by both sides about both of the candidates records. I do think the Bush camp (including Cheney) is being particularly hypocritical in this area.
8) No, and they absolutely shouldn't. Separation of church and state, and all.

[riverflush]

Be ready for a lot of posts that don't answer your questions - but merely pontificate on whatever that particular poster wants to talk about at that given moment.

Like this one...

[ QUOTE ]
Fewer loopholes for the rich and for corporations. I don't mind paying more as long as I know it's not being wasted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! Not being wasted. I'll appoint you to keep track of making sure it's not wasted, that way you can sleep at night.

And I'm FOR more tax loopholes for the rich and corporations. As long as we're subject (by force) to a convoluted, thousands of pages-long tax code...I support the MAXIMUM number of ways to legally work around it. More write-offs, more tax-deferred income, more spending of pre-tax $$$ at the corporate level, etc.

The more money that is left free to spend by both individuals AND corporations, the better off we all are.

Flame on!

[Jimbo]

I only have time to comment on the most remarkable point in your post.

[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't know anyone that supports Bush. But I live in a pretty liberal city, so that's probably why.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should get out a bit more often.

Jimbo

[sameoldsht]

[ QUOTE ]
The more money that is left free to spend by both individuals AND corporations, the better off we all are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a graduate of the 12 Step Program (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1024509&page=12&view= collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#1024509) ?

[sameoldsht]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Stem cell research: For it or against it? And why?
2) Iraq war: Your thoughts.
3) Gay marriage: For it or against it? And why?
4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing or bad thing?
5) The environment: To what extent should we be policing corporations for violations?
6) Taxes: How much is too much? How much is too little? Who should pay the most? The least?
7) Military experience: Required to lead our country?
8) Religion: Are you religious? Do your beliefs influence your politics?


[/ QUOTE ]

Answers can be found at: George W. Bush (http://www.georgewbush.com/)

[riverflush]

That's a funny post...I had never read it previously.

Actually I've never had to enter the 12-step program - thankfully - being a capitalist who picked up my first Economics book at around age 12.

Don't get me started on the lack of basic economics education...I could write 10,000 word posts. (Ask nothumb) It's an ugly scene...

http://subvertise.org/img_med/356.gif

[daryn]

iraq war: i think it's sad that american kids have to die to liberate iraq while the iraqi kids get to play olympic soccer.

gay marriage: have to say against. after all it's just not marriage. absolutely for civil unions though, giving identical rights to gay couples.

the environment: i'm in the "who cares" camp. the earth can only last so long anyway right? so what, we make the world a better place for the next couple thousand years of people.. then what.

taxes: i hate paying for stupid programs that are being abused.

military experience: not required to lead the nation, of course. this one is easy! also i think the reason that the bush camp was making a big deal out of kerry's record is that kerry has marketed himself as a war hero. that is all he is about.

religion: what does "being religious" even mean? i believe in God i think, but how can i be sure? i wouldn't say religion influences my politics though.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Stem cell research: For it or against it? And why?
2) Iraq war: Your thoughts.
3) Gay marriage: For it or against it? And why?
4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing or bad thing?
5) The environment: To what extent should we be policing corporations for violations?
6) Taxes: How much is too much? How much is too little? Who should pay the most? The least?
7) Military experience: Required to lead our country?
8) Religion: Are you religious? Do your beliefs influence your politics?


[/ QUOTE ]

1.) I'm for it, why wouldn't you want ppl. to find a cure for dreaded dieases.
2.) This is a tough one. Personally, I think we rushed in there without an exit plan. This is a mess that I'm not sure that Bush or (That other guy that I can't name in this post) can fix.
3.) Let the states decide this issue.
4.) Good thing, not very high on my issue list. What about Heath our country?Health care?
5.) another issue that the states should be dealing with
6.) Reduce spending than reduce taxes not vice versa
7.) Not required
8.) Personal but don't affect my decisions

You won't get any Bush supporters responding to these questions. Most Bush supporters would rather talk about (that guy I can't name in this post) than issues.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Stem cell research: For it or against it? And why?
2) Iraq war: Your thoughts.
3) Gay marriage: For it or against it? And why?
4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing or bad thing?
5) The environment: To what extent should we be policing corporations for violations?
6) Taxes: How much is too much? How much is too little? Who should pay the most? The least?
7) Military experience: Required to lead our country?
8) Religion: Are you religious? Do your beliefs influence your politics?


[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, I will be voting for Bush come Nov.

1) For disease/etc research, against cloning.
2) I wont' go deep into this, but speaking as someone who's cousin volunteered to go to Iraq (and is missing my wedding in a week) and who's father may be heading over soon, I am for it, as is the rest of my pro-Bush family.
3) For it. Let them get taxed as much as the rest of the married couples.
4) Good.
5) I'm not sure you can exactly quantify this.
6) Disclaimer: I'm middle-class. I agree w/ the tax breaks the upper class have received recently. It's rediculous to say "well, you make $200k/yr, so we're gonna tax you x% more than everyone else". It's especially irritating when said ppl acquire this wealth through their own hard work and accomplishments only to have a lot taken back because they are now well off.
7) No, not required.
8) Religious in a sense, yes. Of course religion affects my political beliefs, but I agree that those of political power need to keep religion and state separate (particularly the justice dept)

[pokerjo22]

I only know two people: one of them's a Christian and one of them's a moron.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Heath our country?Health care?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very much in agreement that our health care should come first.

But it costs relativly little to ship condoms/BC pills to these countries and teach them how to use them.

Would help with population and starvation.

Many argue that abstinence is the only thing that should be taught (to ourselves and other countries), and that just ain't gonna do anything.

PS: I was raised Catholic.

[Kopefire]

While it costs relatively little, very few of these countries are facing serious issues of starvation due to lack of food production --- but rather due to lack of delivery, war, disease etc.

The way this issue is debated in the first world concerns me for two big reasons:

1) racism . .. i can't help but wonder if there's not a little bit of "well we don't want any more of them dark skinned folks showing up on our shore" going on here.

2) woman's rights . . . since in many of these cultures women don't have much in the way of freedom of choice I'd be very concerned to see women being forced to use contraception when they don't want to. Frankly, until the problem of social and political equity for women is solved, birth control shouldn't be dumped en masse into these cultures.

[CCass]

I voted for Bush 4 years ago, and will be doing the same in November. For the record, I am a life-long Southern Democrat, who had never voted for a Republican until 4 years ago. To quote Zell Miller, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me".

1. - I favor stem cell research
2. - It would be a huge mess if we pull out anytime soon, so we have got to stay and finish the job. We didn't rebuild Japan or Germany in a year, Iraq is no different.
3. - I believe this is a state issue (our Constitution says it is also). My personal belief is that any person, gay or straight, should be allowed to designate (for legal and medical issues) their "life partner".
4. - Good thing, but not very high on my list of priorities
5. - Anyone (big business or otherwise) should be held accountable when they break the law. I generally think that our environmental laws have gone too far. We should be drilling for oil in the ANWAR, as an example.
6. - The fewer the taxes, the better. I was/am a proponent of Bush's tax cuts the last couple of years, but I don't like deficits. The government needs to spend less.
7. - Not required. The reason it has been such an issue this year, is that the Dems have made it one. Unfortunately for them, it seems to be backfiring on them.
8. - I consider myself to be a religious person (Christian). Of course my beliefs influence my politics, how could they not? All of my beliefs, religious or otherwise, influence my politics.

Chris

[OrangeHeat]

1) Stem cell research: Not sure need to research it.

2) Iraq war: Intelligence was bad, but so was the rest of the world's. Have to stay and finish it now.

3) Gay marriage: Against it.

4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Very good thing.

5) The environment: We should enforce current laws and push for alternative fuels.

6) Taxes: Flat tax or national sales tax. I hate wealth redistribution through uncle sam's hands.

7) Military experience: Required to lead our country? No.

8) Religion: Are you religious? Yes - not organized. Do your beliefs influence your politics? Why wouldn't they?

Orange

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I only know two people: one of them's a Christian and one of them's a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet those two people would have the same response. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vulturesrow]

1) For stem cell research. What I am against is the creation of human embryos for the purpose of stem cell harvesting.

2) We got into it for the right reasons given the available intel. The backside of the war has not gone as well as hoped but nonetheless progress is being made.


3)Against. I believe that allowing homosexual marriage is against the whole purpose of the institution of marriage.

4) Good thing, but a very tangential issue in my opinion.

5) We have too much. Some is necessary but we are way overboard.

6) Flat tax or national income tax is what we need.

7) Not required, but a plus in general.

8) I am not particularly religious in that I go to church every sunday etc. I do believe in a higher power and I do accept the teachings of the Catholic church. As to whether they influence my politics? Of course they do and frankly I dont think anyone can honestly say they have religious beliefs but they dont affect their political views.

[cjromero]

1. I am in favor of stem cell research, although I need to read more objective material about the realistic advantages of the research before I would be comfortable with the creation and harvesting of new embryos for the sole purpose of stem cell research.

2. I wasn't a huge fan of the war at the time, as I thought our efforts could have been better spent elsewhere, initially in Afghanistan and other Al Queda strongholds. I think Bush and his advisers relied upon the best possible intelligence at the time of not only the U.S. but of several European countries, including countries that opposed the war. It is now clear that the Pentagon bought into the wildly optimistic views of some at the expense of the more realistic predictions of others, and the postwar planning was atrocious. All of that having been said, I think the war will prove to be a smart move when judged by history. I think the pre-emption doctrine is a sound one in a post 9/11 world.

3. I am against gay marriage because I believe that the institution of marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not opposed to partners receiving benefits, etc. under the guise of civil unions.

4. Birth control for 3rd world countries is a good thing.

5. I am not well read enough on environmental issues to give a substantive answer to this question. I will say, though, that a proper balance between industrial development and the environment should be strived for, rather than entirely pro-industry or pro-environment. I think some claims of extreme environmentalists have actually hurt the credibility of more mainstream environmentalists.

6. A flat tax is the way to go.

7. Military experience is not required to lead the country, but I see it as a minor additional benefit. I could care less about any of the details of the military service or non-service of the two current candidates.

8. I am Catholic, but don't consider myself ardently religious. It doesn't color my politics all that much, as I am in favor of stem cell research and also in favor of abortion rights, albeit with significant restrictions.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Although I'm not voting for either Bush or Kerry, I'll answer.

1) No restrictions on privately funded stem cell research. Also no restriction on cloning.

2) For it. This is but one battle in the war of civilization against the return to the dark ages.

3) For it. Marriage is essentially a contract. The government has no right to restrict the right to contract based upon gender.

4) Not our business.

5) To the extent that damge can be proved, we should prosecute polluters, corporate or otherwise. However, since the federal government is the source of the most pollution, we should start there first.

6) I oppose all income taxes. One penny is too much. How much you earn is irrelevant.

7) Not really.

8) I'm not religious, but you can't expect those who are to not bee guided by their principles. All the Constitution says on the subject is "Congress shall make no law with respect to the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[juanez]

1) Stem cell research: For it or against it? And why?
For stem cell research, against human cloning.

2) Iraq war: Your thoughts.
The US frees 25 million oppressed people and stops the tourture, rape rooms and mass graves, while at the same time making the rest of the earth a safer place - good move getting rid of Saddam. We'll see how it goes from here...

3) Gay marriage: For it or against it? And why?
Neutral. Who cares? I do balk at redefining words for political purposes, like "marriage", "sex" and "is".

4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing or bad thing?
Good thing for all countries. Much better than killing unborn infants.

5) The environment: To what extent should we be policing corporations for violations?
We should be enforcing existing laws. I was in the enviro. consulting business for 12 years. Don't think environmental cleanup companies are doing anything but trying to make a profit, like all other corporations. They too loby the gov't for lower exposure limits....so they get more work, not because they "care". This is why I got out of the business and started selling real estate.

6) Taxes: How much is too much? How much is too little? Who should pay the most? The least?
The less we give to the government, the less control they have over us. Everyone should pay there fair share. Nobody should be net tax receiver (aka: leach). A flat tax sounds like a good idea. Let's say 10% for example. If you make $100K your tax would be $10K. If you make $25K, your tax would be $2500. Seems fair to me.

7) Military experience: Required to lead our country?
Not at all.

8) Religion: Are you religious? Do your beliefs influence your politics?
Not really religious and I can give a rats ass what a politicians religion is - they just lie over and over again anyway.

[Cyrus]

Although I don't mind 'em shaved, either.


So here goes:

1) Stem cell research: For it, as long as it is supervised by the government and conducted according to a strict code of ethics. Note that the free market has no ethics, by definition, so this rules out having no rules (i.e. the free market) on stem cell research.

2) Iraq war: A folding hand if I ever saw one. Insisting that the hand is playable because "we had good intel" and "the outcome is not bad anyway because we removed Saddam", is like insisting that we played our Ace-Ten correctly because "we were sure the other guy had Seven-Deuce" (well, he didn't, dummy!) and that the outcome of the way we played was good anyway because "we got to suddenly make so many new friends at this table!"

3) Gay marriage: Indifferent socially, against it religiously. In the sense that if a religion doesn't condone gay marriage, society should not force that religion to change its ways!

4) Birth control for 3rd world countries: Good thing for all countries. The Pope be damned.

5) The environment: We should be policing corporations for violations as strictly as possible and to hell with "the need for innovative products" and such crap excuses. If, for example, our planet's lungs, the rainforest, can be saved but we don't get to have Flying Skis or Super-SUVs or whatever, so what?

6) Taxes:
How much is too much? Anything above 33% of one's income is too much an that includes corporations'.
How much is too little? Anything that ressembles the regressive VAT.
Who should pay the most? Those who have the most.
The least? You figure it out.

7) Military experience: Required to lead America? No. Of course not.

8) Religion:
Are you religious? No.
Do your beliefs influence your politics? Yes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif



...Now, excuse me while I wipe off that bit of hairpie.

[Bez]

1 - for, no reason against it
2 - real mess
3 - against, destroys family values
4 - good (overpopulation)
5 - agree, heavily
6 - no more than 25%
7 - no
8 - no/no

[Bez]

With regards to question 6, I think you may want to reconsider with regards to the real world.

[ACPlayer]

I wont' go deep into this, but speaking as someone who's cousin volunteered to go to Iraq (and is missing my wedding in a week) and who's father may be heading over soon, I am for it

All good reasons to be for the war!

[nothumb]

This one's hot so I'll bite.

1. For it, since Nancy Reagan is too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Seriously, I think the medical benefits are potentially great, would be against creating stem cells specifically for research though.

2. Against the war from the start. Did not buy the WMD line then, not the least bit surprised now. As a student of history I have a little insight on occupying Muslim countries and it's generally about as effective as sticking your cock in a beehive looking for honey. Also, don't buy the arguments that it's improving life for Iraqis, don't believe this was ever the reason Bush and company undertook the project. Don't trust 'em, period.

3. Personally I support full marriage rights but I think that's a state issue. I do think that civil unions or some sort of legal recognition are necessary; beyond that it is a local issue.

4. Very good thing, and I disagree with Kurn that it's not our problem. Issues like exploding population, and having developing nations running populations that are disproportionately young, male, and poor, is a major threat to our strategic interests and geopolitical stability in general. Also, I think most of us agree that abortions are bad (whether you think people should be allowed to get them or not) and that anything that helps prevent them is good.

5. I think we should enforce current policies far more aggressively and take serious steps to make an economically viable transition to green energy. The big money is currently in oil and is therefore resistant to change.

6. This is tricky for me since I'm an anarchist and inherently distrust our current government to do anything with anyone's money. I think some portion of the wealth of a community should go towards mutual aid - not necessarily charity, but investment in the mutual benefit of all. A specific system of property rights and currency, in my opinion, should be determined on a far more local scale than it currently is. I'll admit that my thoughts on this are rather murky, however.

7. No.

8. I was very religious growing up (Quaker) and it influenced my ethical beliefs and my notion of a good governing structure/decision making process. However I am not currently religious and have deviated significantly from Quakerism in several important ways.

NT

[cowboyzfan]

I like this post. You are actually trying to hear opinions other than those you hear every day. Here are responses from an actual Republican.

to your first point i say this: there is a famous political joke/qoute that says "How did Clinton/Bush win, i don't know ANYONE who voted for him? Yes, we tend to hang out with people that think like us and then we think our world is the norm.

1) i am for stem cell research as long as the stems are not "harvested". Basically this comes down to a sanctity of life argument. Many say the data we have now is enough to do research. I have no idea what the truth is. I just hope this isn't just another front in the abortion war.

2. Saddam signed a cease fire a decade ago that said he would disarm and prove that to us. He did nothing but obfuscate for a decade, he proved nothing to us other than he was hiding something. Demos like to say the war was unjustified because we have found no WMD's, but that is not the point. It was Saddams job to "prove" he had not WMD's by alloying the inspectors to go anywhere they wanted, he fought them for ten years and now he is in jail.

3. Marriage is a religious act, not a municipal act. If gays want to bind themselves legally, then fine, just don't call it marriage and don't use a minister. But this issue is not high on my issue list either way.

4. Good thing, 99 percent of Repubs would agree

5. We have been policing violations. Corporations that pollute more than their fare share must pay an extra tax. I hope it goes to helping the environment. However, i doubt this is the case. The Democrats who fought so hard to suck the tobacco companies dry certainly do not spend that tax money to end smoking, it is used to fund pork barrel projects that get them re-elected.

6. The top 50 percent earners pay something like 90 percent of taxes. Many poor people proudly file a tax return, but they don't actually "pay" income taxes. They may pay into their social security or medicare, but they don't pay a red cent in income taxes. Yet the Dems say we should give more "tax cuts" to the poor, the ones who pay no taxes at all.

7, the two greatest war time presidents, Lincoln and FDR were never in the military

8. Yes, not really. Those that try to say Bush has used religion in speeches and policies more than any other president know ZERO about history, and i mean very recent history.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
4. Good thing, 99 percent of Repubs would agree


[/ QUOTE ]

Not 99% of those in Congress. Waaaaay less.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Good thing, 99 percent of Repubs would agree


[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know Kerry's platform advocates tax relief for the middle class, not the poor.

[ QUOTE ]
The Democrats who fought so hard to suck the tobacco companies dry certainly do not spend that tax money to end smoking, it is used to fund pork barrel projects that get them re-elected.


[/ QUOTE ]

You say this as if the lawsuits and taxes on cigarette companies are payable directly to the DNC. They go into government coffers, so both parties can waste the money on pork.

In fact, if you believe Massachusetts Republicans, the GOP is actually better at getting pork to the people now that they control both houses. Republican senate and house candidates here have been known to argue that MA doesn't get its fair share of pork because all our pols are on the losing side. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

NT

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The personal income tax in the US amounts to about 35% of all tax revenue. Return the size of the federal government to its constitutional level and the income tax can go away and we have more than enough money to run the federal government. The funding of wars would be a bit of a problem, but since WWII was the last constitutionally legal war in which the US was involved, that might not be a bad thing.

[The Dude]

1) Stem Cell Research: I'm still open to discussion.
2) Iraq War: From a humanitarian's perspective, it's a bloody shame Saddam was allowed to be in power for so long. The way it went down was terrible. There's no excuse for the mistakes Bush made.
3) I'm in favor of allowing it. I would support a constitutional ammendment protecting that right for same-sex marraiges. "Civil Unions" just feels like a second class marraige, a "separate but equal" kind of thing that would offend me greatly if I were gay. I don't see any reason to regulate morality as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. For example murder and theft should be illegal, but homosexuality not.
4) Birth Control in 3rd World: I see only good things resulting from this.
5) The Environment: It's just plain stupid to live at an unsustainable pace. Stupid. The current administration is blowing it.
6) Taxes: I strongly support changing our taxation system from an income tax to a consumption tax. I'm also in favor of dumping many government programs to reduce the total amount of taxes required.
7) Military Experience Required: Absalutely not. I think it'a a good thing when a candidate has served, but certainly not required.
8) Relegion: I am devout Christian. I don't think it has so much directly shaped my politics as it has indirectly. My basic values and worldviews are centered around my faith, but I tend to disagree with a lot of the general Christian population's political stances. For example, I'm pro gay marraige and anti death penalty, among others.