A2s vs KQs

[CaptObvious]

One of my friends brought up recently that he'd rather A2s, than KQs anytime. Reasoning obviously being he can still make his nut flush, and still make the wheel with that hand.

I got thinking about the hand, and although that's true he can still make the nut flush; as far as KQ goes a K high flush is not to shabby either. The big problem you'd run into with Acey-Deucey is 'trouble.' You can still make the nut straight with KQ, and won't run into as many kicker problems. I was just tossing the idea around and was wondering what everyone else thought.

[fnord_too]

Big it depends here. HU, all in, I like A2s over KQs (i.e. A2s vs. KQs, A2s is a favorite). Against a random hand, HU and all in, KQs is better. In any situation where there is going to be action after the flop, I like KQs much better. Also, when not HU, I like KQs better in all instances (that I do not know my opponents hands). I guess on the whole I'll vote KQs, even though A2s is a favorite over it HU.

[chio]

wtf?

[JT Spades]

This is situational, but there are few situations where A2s is a preferable holding over KQs. Actually, the only one I can think of was already outlined - HU tournament situation. In a cash game, I hope your friend isn't serious. Aside from the fact that a flush comes only what, 6% of the time and of those 6%, how many times does the K high flush lose? Definately not enough to make up for the more frequent cases where you flop top pair and your A2s is dominated. Also, just to further diminish the wheel "argument" in a cash game, an opponent holding 67 and the nut straight is not uncommon. I just don't see any real argument for A2s here.

[Ed Miller]

One of my friends brought up recently that he'd rather A2s, than KQs anytime. Reasoning obviously being he can still make his nut flush, and still make the wheel with that hand.

Don't ever stake this particular friend.

EDIT: show him this

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=value

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Big it depends here. HU, all in, I like A2s over KQs (i.e. A2s vs. KQs, A2s is a favorite). Against a random hand, HU and all in, KQs is better. In any situation where there is going to be action after the flop, I like KQs much better. Also, when not HU, I like KQs better in all instances (that I do not know my opponents hands). I guess on the whole I'll vote KQs, even though A2s is a favorite over it HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is your answer. i agree with everything.

[Victor]

You really need to provide a situation to assess the relative value of the hands. If it was a nolimit tournament and I was going allin heads up I would clearly prefer the A2s. If it is 10-20 and I am the button and the whole table limps to me I would definitely prefer KQs.

[Ed Miller]

You really need to provide a situation to assess the relative value of the hands. If it was a nolimit tournament and I was going allin heads up I would clearly prefer the A2s.

This is extremely misleading. There is essentially NO REAL POKER SITUATION where you should prefer A2s to KQs. Yes, if someone said, "Ok, one of you gets A2s and the other gets KQs and we're gonna run 'em... which one do you want?" your answer would be A2s.

But if someone moves all-in with an unknown hand against you, KQs is MUCH better than A2s. If you don't see that, think about which hand you would prefer if your opponent had something like 66 or AT.

KQs is a much better hand than A2s. Period.

[Nottom]

The only time I would rather have A2s heads-up is if I knew my opponent had A2-A4 or KK.

KQs is a much better hand against a range of hands than A2s. It happens to be an underdog to A2, but its much better off against almost everything else.

[Malcom Reynolds]

KQs has flush making ability just like A2s, but has two chances to make top pair whereas A2s has one. The top pair ability of A2s is weakened by the fact that if another ace is out there, you can chop at best. KQs has a great kicker regardless of which top pair you hit. KQs also makes more straights than A2s. KQs is devalued by the possibiilty of an Ace dropping, where A2s when it hits makes the top pair with no possibility of overcards to its pair.

[Sundevils21]

limit tournament?
no limit tournament?
limit cash game?
no limit cash game?
hot and cold?
multiway?

[illguitar]

Ed...are you a member of Pokerroom.com? If so, what is your name?

[Ed Miller]

Ed...are you a member of Pokerroom.com? If so, what is your name?

Sorry.. I don't play at Pokerroom. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ACW]

[ QUOTE ]
KQs is devalued by the possibiilty of an Ace dropping, where A2s when it hits makes the top pair with no possibility of overcards to its pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually another advantage for KQs if you're not all-in preflop. KQs is easier to dump when beaten, as an ace appearing should sound alarm bells. With A2s it can sometimes be hard to know if you're ahead or dominated.

[afk]

Your friend is ignoring the fact that you most often will win by making top pair, top two or something of the sort. Straights and flushes be damned, especially when a king high flush only loses ... what is it, like 6% of the time to an Ace high flush? That's probably the wrong number, but it's not very often!

[CaptObvious]

Thanks to all who responded. I had already played out the scenario before posting to the forum; but, am always interested in what other people think of particular hands.
After looking at the post, I realize I didn't specify heads up or multi-way; my bad. He said multi-way he still likes the hand; anyhow. Their could be a reason why he just breaks even in when we play limit games. *grin*