10-25 NL at Foxwoods

[Ghazban]

While waiting for my seat at the 5/10 Omaha8 game at Foxwoods over the weekend, I was watching the big no-limit game (which, surprisingly, actually had a full 10 players). What kind of bankroll do you need to sit in this game? I'm sure I don't have enough but I'm curious. Most of the players had about 2-3K in chips and a big stack of cash (cash played a lot in this game, compared to the other games I've played there where they convert everything to chips immediately) so I couldn't tell quite how deep they all were. Also, does anyone know what the time charge is for that game? There was some good play there but even I, with my limited online and small stakes live experience, was able to spot the 2 guys paying everyone else for the privilege.

[turnipmonster]

to really play? I think around 40 buyins if you're going to play a 3k stack, plus a little extra if you want to play deeper if the game is good. so I think 150k should generally be enough to be really bankrolled.

however, it's my experience that even good players underbankrolled will take a lot of shots at games like this if they look good, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people playing weren't really bankrolled all that well for the game.

--turnipmonster

[Ghazban]

I just meant how much to sit with; not how much to play it regularly. It sounds like you're saying 3K would be a good amount (little over 100xBB) and that sounds pretty reasonable to me. With all the wads of cash on the table, it was impossible to be sure exactly how much anybody had at any given time. In any case, I don't see myself taking a shot at that game any time soon unless heaps of money miraculously fall from the sky onto my head.

[turnipmonster]

to sit with I would say 9k would be good, 3 buyins. you would keep 3k on the table and have 2 more buyins to go through if you go bust. bringing only 1 buyin to a big bet game is a good way to go home broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[casinogosain]

I would agree with this - I usually have four buy-ins with me but only one on the table (different game/different city - similar stakes).

-Ash

[turnipmonster]

maybe you can answer a question I had about games where cash plays a while ago (cash does not play in my card room). in a game where cash does play, if you ask someone how much they have left and they won't answer you, can you get the floor to count them down?

in other words, are you entitled to know how much they have left? this never comes up in my games where people can be easily counted down visually.


--turnipmonster

[The Gift Of Gab]

Cash doesn't play in the Bay Area, but it does in L.A. and Vegas. I've never seen anyone refuse to count down their bills when asked, though I imagine the floor would do it if a player wouldn't. Only an incompetent floorman would let someone get away with hiding their depth.

I hate having to eyeball stacks of cash all the time but I see why casinos and some players like the rule.

[scrub]

I don't know what the time charge is, but I would guess it's around 8/half hour since they charge 6 for the 5/5.

I haven't watched the game a lot, but I know some pretty strong players who sit it when it runs. My guess is that a player without a decent amount of live deep-stack experience would get carved up pretty badly in that game, even if there were a few soft spots in there.

scrub

[scrub]

I've never seen a player refuse to count down his paper. I've seen a dealer fan out the bills under a player in the 1 seat's stack when the player didn't understand the request, and I would be shocked if you weren't able to force a player to count down his stack.

I hate the fact that paper plays at Foxwoods. It slows the games down way too much, especially since there are regulars who never keep a decent working stack and the floor is terrible about fills. Since the dealers aren't supposed to push paper in pots, there are a few nightmarish pots in every session where we have to wait for a dealer to change more than a grand or we have to deal with some argument between players trying to change out the bills themselves. The bay area game I played, even though it had too many nickels on the table, moved much faster.

scrub

[jar]

As a low stakes limit player, I like that paper plays. If I take a couple beats in a row and my stack drops below 12BB, its convenient to just place a few bills by my stack, rather than have to catch the dealers attention immediately. I can see where it might be annoying in NL though.

[turnipmonster]

I don't like cash plays either. while I'm at it, I hate having dealers sell chips and the lack of chip runners, and having limits with multiple chip colors (i.e. 40-80 with reds and greens). east coast card rooms would do well to check out how they do it in CA.

--turnipmonster

[casinogosain]

In the games that I've sat in where cash plays, it has either been easy to count down visually ($1k/$5k wraps) or the player has been willing to count it down. But I agree, I prefer all chips.

I also agree that having the dealer make change etc. slows down the game - and is completely unacceptable when paying a time charge.

What I've been seeing more recently in the Chicago-area games is people hiding (intentionally or not) their big chips behind or within lower denomination stacks.

-Ash

[mmcd]

The reason to allow cash to play (and why cash is so prevalent in higher stakes games) is to avoid the paperwork (CTRs) that is necessary when making large buy-ins/cashouts. If a person has a box, than its not really as much of a concern, as they can just color up to 5ks or whatever and keep the chips in the casino, but I think most people that don't have a box would rather have cash than large denomination chips when they leave, and would rather NOT have to fill out all sorts of forms to get it.

There should be enough chips at the table for the game to run smoothly, but that's it.

By not allowing cash to play, you not only force higher limit players to deal with stupid paper work, you also put them square within the sightline of big brother.\

That being said, nothing pisses me off more than some clown in a 20/40 game with a stack of 20's that I have to take because the table's chip tray is empty. 100's only should play, and only when the stakes are such that CTRs would be an issue.

[toots]

CTRs.

Still another useless pain in the butt that serves no useful purpose except to remind us of another "War on something or other" that we lost.

Otherwise, good point. Hadn't thought of that.

What I wanna know is:

When Binion's sold off their collection of $10,000 notes (allgedly to collectors, where a Chase-note will easily go for a lot more than $10K), did they have to fill out CTRs on the actual movement of the notes, even when payment was not made in cash?

[scrub]

I don't have a problem with cash in games big enough that cashouts are an issue. I also don't have a huge problem with cash if it's all 100s and the dealer will push paper.

I hate guys with mixed denomination stacks of paper and a stack of nickels on top of it, or guys who insist on making every bet in a red chip limit game with 20s. For that matter, I hate guys in red chip limit games who don't buy from the cage and end up breaking quarters from the dealer on every freaking bet. Red chip games shouldn't have any other color on the table--California casinos seem to get it, but the east coast seems to love to slow down their games with mixed chip colors.

scrub

[mikech]

My recent experience in Vegas was this: cash plays in the Horseshoe uncapped buy-in NL game, $100s only, since otherwise the thickness of a roll on the table may be misleading as to how deep someone is really playing. The paper need not be converted to chips; Benjamins can be wagered, lost, won, etc., along with the rest of the pot. At the Mirage, cash plays in the limit games (if you run out of chips, you can throw a bill in there and get change from the pot), but not in its NL games, for some reason.

[PokerSlut]

It's not uncommon to see people pull out big stacks of paper even in much smaller games. Some people who regularly buy in for $10k in the 5-5 PL and 5-10 NL games here in L.A.

[turnipmonster]

this makes a lot of sense, thanks.