Stud-8. Ante Question

I've been playing in a 9 handed 15-30 stud-8 game with a $25 ante on the button and a $5 bring-in. There is a $3 rake.


When the game gets 8 handed, everything stays the same. At 7 and 6 handed, the ante drops to $20 on the button. We are expected to toke the dealer $1 for split pots and $2 for all scoops (it's a home game and this is customary).


Assuming average toughness, is this game comfortably beatable? That is, are the rake, ante, toke amounts reasonable? As a hold'em player, I thought I'd be bored stiff playing stud-8. It turns out I LOVE this game!! Thanks.

If tipping is more or less required the rake must be considered to be $5 per hand.


Moreover, this is not really a rake; it's more like a "button charge", by which I mean that the cost is pretty much shared equally by all the players. It's closer to a time fee than it is to a rake.


Obviously a rake costs looser players more than tighter ones since they win more pots.


A time fee costs everyone the same amount.


So then, with the "normal" charge for 15-30 being $6 per player/per half hour ($12/hr) the cost of playing nine handed would be $108 per hour for the table as a whole plus tips. This would come to ~ $150/hour. A guarantee of $2 per pot is nice for the dealers but in my experience stud/8 games tend to yield far fewer hands per hour than either holdem or normal stud so it's not what I'd call outrageous. If this game even leans toward the loose side I'm guessing there are about 26-28 hands/hour dealt out.

If this is the case you are paying less to play here than you would in most cardrooms so the "rake" is NOT unreasonable.


As far as the ante, there is no such thing as an ante being too high or too low; you just adapt your play to the size of the ante. As to whether this should be considered a high ante - yes it should. If you sit around waiting for big starting hands in this game you'll likely go broke waiting.


The normal ante for 15-30 is $2; the ante in this game is almost exactly $3 and that is a big difference.


In a nutshell then, the RAKE is reasonable and the ANTE is larger than normal meaning you'll have to pay a few more hands which will lead to higher fluctuations. Whomever is running this game did himself and the players a favor; he structured the game so that even the dimmest of the dim will have some winning nights; still, in the end the better player(s) ought to make a [nice] profit.


The only question that remains is are you one of the better players ? ? ?


* And if so, are there at least a couple of terrible players ? They're the ones you make your money off of; sitting with eight people who play slightly inferior poker will not allow for much of a profit - with a $5/hand fee it might not allow you to break even. (You don't have to be the best in this game - you need to be head and shoulders above at least a couple of the others and not too far behind the rest.


Then again if you're the best that's OK too :>).


I'd need to know alot more about the game to predict your future but if the game is on the level you and you play well, neither the rake nor the ante will get in your way.


That was probably more than you wanted to know (I do struggle with that problem at times :>) but I hope it was helpful.


P.S. I also LOVE "stud/8" but there aren't that many good games around at the middle limits (10-20 ... 20-40). There really aren't too many games around period unless it gets alot of play in California - one of the few states I seldom get to.


If you'd like to discuss a few specific hands my address is:


lundellchris@hotmail.com


Best wshes and good luck,


Chris L.

Thanks Chris.


Your post was a BIG help! Note the toke isn't $2 per pot as many pots are split. The $2 is customary only when you scoop.


As far as the ante not mattering if you are a good player, I've heard that it can reach a point (get high enough) to where even the best players can't beat the rake. In other words, the high ante evens the playing field so too much that the rake eats up even the best players (or at least makes it not worth their time to play). But I can tell from your post that you're very experienced and no doubt already took this into consideration.


Thanks again for the very helpful response. I judy might take ya up on discussing a few hands :-)

There does come a point when the size of the ante can become so large that it does make the game close to a crap-shoot, but an ante of ~ 1/5 of the small bet size ($3/$15) is not large enough.


The largest ante you are likely to ever encounter is 1/4 of the small bet; $100-$200 stud is often played with a $25 ante. ($40-$80 is sometimes played with a $10 ante).


In your game that would equate to roughly a $35 ante from the button (or almost $4 per player). If the ante were any larger than this it would be difficult to beat the game on a regular basis; eventually the good players would get the money even here but it could literally take YEARS !


- As to the rake:


Scoop or split, $2 per hand is coming off the table so [unfortunately] it is still a $5 rake unless I misunderstood the tipping policy you described.


All of this is moot if the game is played by weak players; if you are far better than your opponents you will do well even with a higher ante - you could even survive a slightly higher rake.


If you're NOT, reducing (or even eliminating) the rake won't help much and the higher ante would actually HELP you - though not enough (unless you were playing for recreation with little regard for the money).


I once played in a 15/30 stud game with a $5 ante; it required a litte more work but the opposition was so weak it didn't take long to most of the money. This game also had a $5 rake but tipping was discretionary and given the size of most of the pots it didn't hurt much to part with a buck or two when you won one of THOSE pots.

Thanks again Chris-


As to how much better (or worse) I am compared to my opponents... Well, the jury's still out on that. Without question, limit hold'em is by far my strongest game. In fact, until very recenty, it was my ONLY game!


About 3 weeks ago, I was talked into playing a $15-$30 stud-8 game. I reluctantly agreed to play, although I was expecting to be bored stiff being a hold'em player. It turns out, I loved the game!


Ironically, I've been thinking that I need to become a more well rounded poker player anyway. $20-$40 is about the highest limit hold'em game regularily spread in my area. I decided that if I really want to earn some significant money from poker, I'm going to have to expand my horizons a little. That means learning other games and being able to sit in the most profitable, highest limit game available at any given time.


I made my first foray into a $50-$100 H.O.S.E game last night. No doubt I was slightly out of my league. But I wanted to see what these games were like and what it takes to hold your own and get the money in this game. I was actually pretty pleased with my performance except for the very last hand I played...


It was a stud-8 hand and I was looking low with a 654 up. I realize now my mistake was that I didn't play it aggressively enough and the result was that a weak 8-low out-played me. I backed into 2 small pair and didn't overcall the 8's bet on 7th street after a Q (going high) called. This cost me a split, since a lousy pair of queens chopped it with the rough 8-low. I realized my mistakes almost immediately. In addition to ABSOLULTELY having to over-call on 7th street because of the pot size, I ALSO should've jammed 5th and/or 6th streets a little stronger than I did. Had I done so, the 8 may have folded and I would've scooped an $1100 pot!! Oh well, live and learn... It was only my 3rd time playing stud-8. I gaurantee I read this situation a LOT better once I get 500 or so hours under my belt. In the meantime, I think I'll stick to learning at a smaller limit /images/smile.gif