how to play with a big stack? 4 people left...

[menthemaster]

i was playing in a 2 table tournament last nite... and ended up down to the final 4 people. 3 spots got paid.

i had about 30,000 chips, player to my left had 27,000 and than 2 others had about 6000.


blinds were 2,,000 - 4000.



the hand that crippled me was i had A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif UTG and raised to 12,000.


the other big stack called and blinds folded.


flop came A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif


now when i raised to 12000 the other big stack thought about it for a while if he should call or not... and almost layed down his hand... so i was thinking maybe mid pair...


anyways.. i put him all in on the flop... and he thought about it for a LONG time... than finally called with J /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif


so i ended up loosing... and coming in 4th.





was this a horrible play to raise in that spot with ace 5?

looking back on it i would going to say yes... but i guess at the time i thought my ace was good against the blinds and didnt expect other big stack to play the hand.


after writing this out... i think i made a bad play.


how do you play when you have a big stack at a table? do you try to knock people out.. or be more patient. (if the blinds are pretty high)

[rybones]

for my money, the play here is fine untill the push. In general, I don't mind playing against the big stack as their money isn't as big a deal to them so they will give more away. That said, there is also truth that you shouldn't play with the big boys unless you have the hand. I think your pre-flop read is ok on this guy, but you should not discount the A,x. Remember, he doesn't want to play against you either unless he has a hand. After the flop, you need to find out where he is at. also remember you had him on a mediup pair, I personally would play the baby pair as well. The truth of medium pairs is that they are just as strong or weak at baby pairs. They are only good if they hit and when they do you are golden. what is to say he did not hit his set? I say bet 1/2 the pot. My read is that he could put you on A,k and thus he will call and check to the river just as you should call and check or fold to the river. while you may lose a ton of chips, you are still in the game.

As usual, just my opinion and all comments welcome.

Ryan

[Kopefire]

You have two people that can't survive 2 rotations, you are the chip lead, and you're playing a speculative hand?!

Sorry, I fold anything less than ATs here.

The FIRST priority is getting rid of the people you can easily get rid of. Going to war with another big stack when you're one away from the money benefits the two short stack people more than either of the two people fighting the war.

This is a bad move.

Fold this hand pre-flop without blinking an eye.

[Gator]

In this situation, I may raise to 8K preflop. I think that raise says two things. To the two small stacks it says are you prepared to play for all of your chips - if not, get out of my way - I'm willing to take my chances with them if they want to see the flop.
Call - you hit monster (i.e. A55) and he has AJ and makes same call - that's good news.
In other words, what does the extra 4K buy you pre-flop. I don't think it buys much.
To the big stack it says either: I have a pretty good hand and you should let me have it unless you have something decent (which he did) or I have a monster and I'm inviting you to go over the top.
If he goes over the top, you can release hand and feel ok about it. If he calls - you have a smaller pot at which to bet 1/2 pot on the flop if ace hits and see how he reacts.
The smaller pre-flop bet doesn't really expand (by much) his coming over the top pre-flop or his call/raise choices if an ace hits.
The smaller raise doesn't cost you much in this case (I don't think). What could the other big stack do?
With Garbage - Bluff, reraise over the top - doubtful - perhaps smaller raise causes this rare event to happen
Come over the top with AK or TT-AA - probably better for you if he does this.

[menthemaster]

[ QUOTE ]
You have two people that can't survive 2 rotations, you are the chip lead, and you're playing a speculative hand?!

Sorry, I fold anything less than ATs here.

The FIRST priority is getting rid of the people you can easily get rid of. Going to war with another big stack when you're one away from the money benefits the two short stack people more than either of the two people fighting the war.

This is a bad move.

Fold this hand pre-flop without blinking an eye.

[/ QUOTE ]




thanks for the opions. very helpful.. since i have another tournament tonite. looking back.. i think i should have folded pre-flop. i was bascily trying to go heads up with the blinds not expecting the last player to have a bigger ace than me... but i guess, why take the chance.


thanks for the help.

[rybones]

this is a much better responce than mine!!!!!!!

that said, I would never fold A,5 suited 4 handed!! it is more than likely the the best hand by far!!!! If I get called or raised it is likely not the best hand but I can play around with it depending on who calls or raises. I think folding is not just weak tight, but way big wussy tight!!! you are the big stack, use it!! you want as much strength as you can get going into the money. If someone calls and you end up check folding you look smart not weak. this is especially true when you later raise get called and then instead of check/folding you raise on the turn and river. The other guy will remember that you laid it down last time so you must have it this time.

again, just my opinion

Ryan

[Gator]

Rybones, we are close to being on the same page. I'd like some clarification on "never folding A5s" preflop. In the post, player with 30K stack raised to 12K - 27K stack called. I recommended raise to 8k.
In either case (8K or 12K raise) if 27K stack comes over the top, are you suggesting a call there?
I don't think I can make that call (with 4 players left - 2 of which are very small stacks). If you would call an all in from the 27K stack, then the 30K stack should push with the A5s.
To recap my strategy, I bet 8K. When called by other large stack, I then bet 1/2 pot when A, 5 or four flush develops - else try to check it down.
In a related post, I was in similar situation on the button. UTG (2,800 stack) raised to 600 (3x bb) with JJ. I (2,900 stack) pushed all in with AQu. He ended up calling. This is clear example (I think) where UTG should have pushed (I don't call there against other big stack with AQ).

[Kopefire]

I have to say I like Gator's response here as well.

Basically .. if you can steal the blinds fine, but do not under any circumstances, get in a fight with the other big stack with this hand.

I don't think folding here is "weak-tight." At this point you are angling to finish in the money at or near chip lead. That means you should be playing smart poker. A5s is a speculative hand. Yes, you're short handed, but it's still just ace high with a flush and straight draw possibility (and not even the nut straight, we should add).

Risking the chip lead on a speculative hand is a bad play at this stage of the tourney.

however, 8k to play heads up with one of the short stacks mgiht be an ok play as well.

But .. what do you do if you get called by a short stack and the other big stack? After the flop you almost have to walk away and that just puts 8k dead money into the pot that the short stack MIGHT win.

I just don't see that as a +ev move.

Maybe folding pre-flop is premature, but you shouldn't keep playing after the flop with top pair weak kicker. you have to assume at that point you're beat.

[rybones]

yes, we are on the same page. of course I fold if I looks like I am dead before or after the flop. Again, I really think I am good untill someone tells me I am not and then I might still want proof. I would have to say an all in push over my raise from the 27k stack is likely proof. a call from that stack not so much. a call after the post flop bet of 1/2 the pot also tells me I am dead.

Also, I love your line of tinking for the 2xbb raise.

ryan

[smartalecc5]

your in a four person game and your laying down anything less than AT suited? YOU KIDDING ME??? Any ace alone is valuable enough!

[Kopefire]

Depends where I AM in the 4 person game.

With the tallest stack and 2 players about to get eaten alive by the blinds, you're damn skippy I'm going to be ultra tight (and ultra aggressive if I do go into a pot).

The goal is to win as much money as possible. Playing low aces in this situation is -ev. It really is. The most likely outcomes all benefit the shortest stacked players.

[Burno]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends where I AM in the 4 person game.

With the tallest stack and 2 players about to get eaten alive by the blinds, you're damn skippy I'm going to be ultra tight (and ultra aggressive if I do go into a pot).

The goal is to win as much money as possible. Playing low aces in this situation is -ev. It really is. The most likely outcomes all benefit the shortest stacked players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fiction. Playing low aces here is not -EV. If your goal is to win as much money as possible you CANNOT play ultra tight when you are in an optimal bubble situation such as this. Folding here would be a mistake.

Call me crazy, but I would move in here. Raising anything less than 27,000 allows the other big stack to try and flop something with a good, but not great holding.

Your hand figures to be the best against the two blinds, and you won't have to make any postflop decisions. The way I see it, the other big stack can't call the all in without AA, KK, QQ, and maybe JJ or AKs. AJ looks real lousy for all your chips.

Just my two cents, I am a bit of an aggro maniac on the bubble thanks to Strassa.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends where I AM in the 4 person game.

With the tallest stack and 2 players about to get eaten alive by the blinds, you're damn skippy I'm going to be ultra tight (and ultra aggressive if I do go into a pot).

The goal is to win as much money as possible. Playing low aces in this situation is -ev. It really is. The most likely outcomes all benefit the shortest stacked players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fiction. Playing low aces here is not -EV. If your goal is to win as much money as possible you CANNOT play ultra tight when you are in an optimal bubble situation such as this. Folding here would be a mistake.

Call me crazy, but I would move in here. Raising anything less than 27,000 allows the other big stack to try and flop something with a good, but not great holding.

Your hand figures to be the best against the two blinds, and you won't have to make any postflop decisions. The way I see it, the other big stack can't call the all in without AA, KK, QQ, and maybe JJ or AKs. AJ looks real lousy for all your chips.

Just my two cents, I am a bit of an aggro maniac on the bubble thanks to Strassa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this suggestion.

Unless you have a read on the other big stack that suggests he'll call.