i'm a payoff machine

[schwza]

should i have called the bet on the river? comments on other streets appreciated as well.

here are my player notes on the villain at the time of the hand:

open raise q9s CO
can fold to 3bet
open min raise a7 utg+1, ditto K5
big raise BB KT [meaning it was limped to him and he raised]
slowplayed TP KQ till R [meaning top pair K's with Q kicker]


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($200)
MP ($200)
CO ($209.40)
<font color="C00000">Button ($954.40)</font>
SB ($226)
<font color="C00000">Hero ($356.10)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($16) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, CO folds, Button calls $15, SB folds.

Turn: ($46) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $75</font>, Hero calls $40.

River: ($196) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $100</font>, Hero calls $100.

Final Pot: $396
<font color="green">Main Pot: $396, between Button and Hero.</font>

[jon_1van]

So, I'm guessing the flop bet was a "I'm the BB and my trash hand hit" type bet. Add a little gutshut straight draw and you have a player dependant bet here.

When the turn hits I'd probably check. Not really wanting to "be put to a decision". I'd think the chance of me winning with the Q were pretty good. But I wouldn't enjoy calling bets with it (nor making them for that matter). Basically, the goal would be "cheap showdown" at the point.

If I did bet the turn here I'd probably fold to the raise. The opponent could have so many hands that beat you and you are probably gonna have to pay to see a river. The only card that will make the river pleasent is a J.

P.S. I think your notes indicate a tough 6 handed player..as does stack size

[Pokerho]

I'm trying to think of why he would raise there. Does he have Q9 or Q8? Is he afreaid of you drawing to the inside straight? Does he fear you have 2 hearts? Does he have two hearts? Maybe he slow played AQh, or QQ?

I doubt I have been very helpful to you, this is a tough one.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I'm guessing the flop bet was a "I'm the BB and my trash hand hit" type bet. Add a little gutshut straight draw and you have a player dependant bet here.


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, exactly. i figured i had 10 outs to a hand that was probably the best, and with that board there was a good chance that villain missed completely.

[ QUOTE ]

When the turn hits I'd probably check. Not really wanting to "be put to a decision". I'd think the chance of me winning with the Q were pretty good. But I wouldn't enjoy calling bets with it (nor making them for that matter). Basically, the goal would be "cheap showdown" at the point.


[/ QUOTE ]

my read was that this guy was pretty loose. i thought he would call a bet here with an 8 or 9. i also didn't want to give either of those hands (or some kind of straight draw) free cards.

[ QUOTE ]

If I did bet the turn here I'd probably fold to the raise. The opponent could have so many hands that beat you and you are probably gonna have to pay to see a river. The only card that will make the river pleasent is a J.


[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, that might have been a better choice. but the pot was big and the raise was small... and i thought there was a chance that he had been intending on slowplaying a hand as bad a T9 and decided to raise the turn anyway once the Q hit (see the note about slowplaying KQ till the river). the play i really question is the river.

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. I think your notes indicate a tough 6 handed player..as does stack size

[/ QUOTE ]

oooh.... disagree. opening for the min raise from utg+1 in a 6-handed game with K5o (or A7o) is pretty bad, as is raising from the BB with KTo. i learned later in the session that a min raise always meant a mediocre hand, so i started 3-betting him a lot. he always folded. i think it's the first player i ever got an edge on by 3-betting light.

[MrFeelNothin]

Putting 50 BBs into a pot with TPNK? Payoff machine indeed.

I could see betting that flop, but I check/(call or fold) depending on size of bet or bet/fold to raise because unless you improve on the river you are going to have to fold to his large bet, as should have happened. No way I'm calling that river, all you can beat is a bluff, and if he is bluffing you will surely get another shot at doubling off him later in the session. I would attempt to get to showdown cheaply here, but I am prepared to drop the hand at the slightest puff of aggression from the opponent

villain have J10?

[Wayfare]

Check the flop so you won't have to play such a big pot like that...?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Putting 50 BBs into a pot with TPNK? Payoff machine indeed.

I could see betting that flop, but I check/call turn or bet/fold to raise because unless you improve on the river you are going to have to fold to his large bet, as should have happened. No way I'm calling that river, all you can beat is a bluff, and if he is bluffing you will surely get another shot at doubling off him later in the session.

villain have J10?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all spot-on, including the read of JT. i think one reason i wanted to post was so that somebody would tell me that i definitely should've folded. thanks for the input.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop so you won't have to play such a big pot like that...?

[/ QUOTE ]

i was just trying to steal on the flop.... i'm going to steal or give up (or spike a J for the nuts) the vast majority of the time.

[Wayfare]

Well if you have that mentality then lay it down when he shows you agression and all you have is a pair.

I really think that you may have shifted game plans mid-hand here yes? I want to steal with 4 outs to "ooh I have a pair and he is LAG so I am likely ahead?"

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
i was just trying to steal on the flop.... i'm going to steal or give up (or spike a J for the nuts) the vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the steal attempt failed. why didnt you give up?

[schwza]

i meant i'll give up except those times i hit an overcard. when i hit the Q, my hand's too good to give up.

i just meant that i had no particular desire to reach a cheap showdown when i was holding just overcards and a gutshot. i was more concerned about winning the pot immediately, which may have been a bad idea given that i thought he was kinda loose.

[MrFeelNothin]

Yeah the Q was a tough card. Here is where the villian's LAG image pays off for him. If he pays you off in a couple small pots with a smaller pair, he will get paid off when he hits his big hand. I have big problems with what to do when facing aggression from LAGs too. Its a tough feeling when you think youre being pushed out of a pot. I guess you just have to accept that you will be bluffed out on occasion, its nothing to be afraid of, just make the laydowns you know are right.

[Daann]

I'd fold to the turn bet. When someone shows that sort of strength when you've been representing the random BB two pair, then they usually have it. This is especially true when they wait until the turn to raise. I might call ocasionally, just so that people don't think that they can run me over, but I would definitely fold to the river bet without improvement.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
oooh.... disagree. opening for the min raise from utg+1 in a 6-handed game with K5o (or A7o) is pretty bad, as is raising from the BB with KTo. i learned later in the session that a min raise always meant a mediocre hand, so i started 3-betting him a lot. he always folded. i think it's the first player i ever got an edge on by 3-betting light.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry...missed this one. But I don't think trying to push people off of hands after a limp fest is a bad idea. I also don't think failing to build a big pot with big pair is a bad idea...all things are situation dependant.

So I guess we can sum up the notes to LAG. This makes the hand hard to play when you are holding an above average medium strength hand...you'll beat alot of his crap...but you are gonna have to take large risk to do it

[jon_1van]

on a side note:

In shorthanded low stakes ring games I've been experimenting with the "play anything you can strategy". The particular table I've been trying this on is quite passive. It has worked out quite well because I have the ability to fold middle pair mediorce kicker and my opponents do not. And my opponent never seem to realize that I dont ever make bad calls...just loose raises. If you find this guy to be a lose raiser, try to watch what he calls with. If people over adjust to his crazy man image (call too much) it might be making money for him.

I suggest you sit down with a deck of cards and repeatidly deal out 6 "holes" face up to see how often everyone has crap. If you can outplay the opponents when everyone has crap you are making alot of money by playing more hands. And you are making yourself extremely difficult to play against because a raise could mean literally anything.

[Yerma]

If he had a really strong hand, I'd expect him to raise you all-in considering your stack size. I can't believe noone has suggested that you should jam here?! I think this is a good place to jam it. If he has something like QJ or even KQ he has to fold. This is a good place to put in some chips.

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
If he had a really strong hand, I'd expect him to raise you all-in considering your stack size. I can't believe noone has suggested that you should jam here?! I think this is a good place to jam it. If he has something like QJ or even KQ he has to fold. This is a good place to put in some chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you put him on QJ or KQ? These are both very unlikely hands considering the action, both probably whould have folded on the flop. Where exactly would you raise? Over the top of his $100 bet on the river? Unless you hate money I wouldn't really suggest this, if you REALLY thought your Q was good you call as our HERO did, a raise will only push off worse hands, I cant see the villain having a Q here at all, two pair or the turned str8 are likely. However I think it is clear in retrospect that folds were in order on the turn and the river. This is NOT a good place to put in some chips.

[thatpfunk]

I like your flop bet. At first I really disliked the turn bet, but I would probably follow through just the same...

However, it builds a large pot with a crappy hand (yuck) and you still do have a draw to the straight. This situation just sucks /images/graemlins/frown.gif

He makes a decent value bet on the river, but I think you have to fold there. Not as bad as you thought. Your aggressiveness hooked you in

[GimmeDaWatch]

Ya, I agree with folding to any raise on the turn. It reeks of JT or some other made big hand where youre not even sure what you need to hit in order to win. The raise on the turn implies the big bet on the river, and you shouldnt call the first one unless you're willing to call him down.