Finally learning NL : so, what the hell did I do wrong here?

[QuadsOverQuads]

Background: I'm a reasonable stud, limit and SNG player, but I'm still VERY new to NL, as will be obvious from the hand below. So, take me out to the woodshed, people. School me. I'm all ears. Because the next time I'm in this situation, I want to play it right. Thanks for all tips, analysis, and general knuckle-rapping you all can provide /images/graemlins/smile.gif

q/q

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($40.85)
SB ($175)
BB ($52)
UTG ($26.20)
Evil Bastard ($45.55)
MP1 ($118.45)
MP2 ($61.25)
MP3 ($20.75)
CO ($18.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, Evil Bastard calls $1, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Evil Bastard calls $4, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($12.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Evil Bastard checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, Evil Bastard calls $12.

Turn: ($36.50) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Evil Bastard bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8.

River: ($52.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Evil Bastard bets $20.55 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $15.85 (All-In).

Final Pot: $88.90
<font color="green">Main Pot: $84.20, between Hero and Evil Bastard.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Evil Bastard ($84.20).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $4.70, returned to Evil Bastard.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Evil Bastard has 8h Td (two pair, tens and eights).
Hero has As Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Evil Bastard wins $88.90. </font>

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[bunky9590]

Only mistake I see is not pushing the turn, but hey, the cat is gonna call anyway. With tiny stacks and that buy in structure Aces are boss there. But, that's Party poker in a nutshell.

Small stack + stupid players = wicked beats.
Chalk it up, reload and move on.

[turkkito]

Push on the turn since you know you'll have to call on the river anyway, you don't want to give any cheap cards to flush or straight draws.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Ok, I figured that failing to push the turn was my most obvious error (I couldn't put him on the 76, but I guess I got cold feet ... lesson learned on that one). But how about the bet sizes on the preflop raise and the flop bet? I'm serious when I say I'm REALLY new to NL. This was completely seat-of-the-pants stuff, and I'm wondering if I inadvertently gave off signals (via my bets) that I was weaker than I was (did I overbet?) or that maybe I should have laid lower on the flop (?).

My basic approach right now (for lack of anything else) is just to ask myself "what do I want this person to do?" and then, when I have that answer, I try to guage what bet will achieve that result. What I was trying to do here was to let him make the bad call on the preflop, but then make him pay to draw any further. The bet on the turn threw me, I guess, because I wasn't expecting it (which should've tipped me off that it was a bluff or an overbet, in retrospect), but maybe I trapped him up more than I meant to? Argh. I'm just not sure. But I dont' want to chalk this loss up to inevitability until I'm positive there's no way I could've taken it down against this (obviously poor) player.

q/q

[Gator]

Replay the hand - this time be your opponent, but put yourself on AK - your play could have been made with AK in which case a party opponent might think
Preflop - ok, my any two can beat AK
Flop - ok, so he bet with overcards and because he led preflop and he's supposed to, nothing to worry about
Turn - I'll lead out to show him who's boss, see if there is no resistence - if he reraises, I'll know there's trouble - he didn't so I'm o.k.
River - Beautiful

[cagedman]

Preflop: fine
Flop: fine
Turn: I would reraise to $20-$25 here deep stacked but the stacks work out perfect here for an allin reraise.
River: shouldn't end up in this situation, but, if so, it's still a call.

[GimmeDaWatch]

I dont know if this guy's thinking equates to what Gator was saying b/c he is obviously terrible, but ya you still need to push on the turn if you're planning on calling the river anyway. This bet could easily be a ploy for him to draw cheaply or push you off your hand by confusing you.
And who knows, maybe he would have even, gasp, folded.

[PokerSlut]

I don't think he'd call a reraise all-in here. The villain got EXACTLY what he was looking for; a cheap river with an unsure holding. If he had been popped back all-in on the turn, I think he'd have to lay it down, or at the very least he'd be calling with really, really bad odds compared to what he got.

This tiny bet out on the turn from an out of position player reaks of weakness. In my experience this kind of bet is almost always a semi-bluff. He is testing the waters for an AK or similar holding from our Hero, and hoping to improve his hand cheaply.

[RYL]

You should have went all-in on the turn. You want to make him pay for the river.

[jon_1van]

Preflop :: Make the raise a bit more. Think about the situation you will put the callers in...the pot is (1(BB)+ .5(sb) + 1(call) + 1 (call) + 5(you)) 8.50 assuming the sb or bb don't come along. so it's 4 bucks to you in a 8.5 pot..those are decent odds. Great odds once one or 2 players call. So you shoulnd't be too surprised if you end up playing this pot multi-handed

The turn screams damage control. Opponent is thinking.."That guy just bet 12...perhaps I can bet 8 and avoid a bet by my opponent that would be higher"

If you think your opponent is good he might be fishing for a reraise though. The reason you might think this is that calling the pot sized bet on the flop indicates some sort of hand...possibly a set after limping pre-flop. But at this limit I'd lean hard towards damage control.

Therefore...raise to 24 on the turn...fold to an all-in.

[QuadsOverQuads]

This is great analysis, people. Thank you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I especially appreciate the walk through the thought process behind that turn-bet, because it really threw me. Being a limit player, the whole idea that he might be betting out small to avoid calling a bigger bet is not something that I picked up on. Now that I look at it in that light the counter-play is much more intuitive. Also, I did increase my preflop bets on high pocket pairs since making this post, and the results have been noticeably better. Clearly, I was indeed giving my opponents better odds than I should have been.

So much to learn, so much to learn /images/graemlins/smile.gif


q/q

[DBowling]

It looks like you got a beat by an idiot who thought you had AK. His bet on the turn is terribly small compared to the pot, maybe he wants to see a cheap river. I would have pushed him in there, probably. Its tough to tell without a read. He just as easily could have 67 for the flopped straight, but because the stacks arent deep, i would have pushed. If he wants to suck out on you with 2nd pair ok kicker, his loss more times than not. The river isnt a scare card really, it doesnt make any logical straights that werent there already. I guess i call, but only against the type of opponent that will go to the felt with 2nd pair ok kicker.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]

Therefore...raise to 24 on the turn...fold to an all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has $23.85 in front of him on the turn. His stack'd need to be significantly bigger before he could think about folding to a turn reraise all-in.

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The preflop raise is pot-sized, which I think is fine here. You should try not to vary your raises based on the hand you're holding.

As a few others have said, the turn is a clear push. If he has a set/67, good for him. You're way ahead most of the time

[Wayfare]

Push the turn, and get sucked out on. Never slow down with aces unless he gives you a damn good reason to.

[vulturesrow]

QoQ,

Just a quick note on bet size. I nearly always make pot sized bets or real close to pot sized bets. I have just recently gotten to the point where I will vary bet sizes but honestly just potting it whenver you want to put in a bet is the best. One advantage I have discovered in the weaker games that I play in, is that most people are very hesitant to call or raise pot sized bets. Hope this helps.

[turkkito]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I did increase my preflop bets on high pocket pairs since making this post, and the results have been noticeably better. Clearly, I was indeed giving my opponents better odds than I should have been.


[/ QUOTE ]
Remember that you don't want to always bet $x with AA/KK, $y with AK and $z with AQ, this makes you too easy to read. People generally suggest that if you're going to raise preflop, raise the same amount of money with all your hands so that your opponents can't immediately put you on AK for example.