Reraising with TT

[maxpowers21]

I was wondering how big of a mistake it is to not reraise an UTG or UTG+1 raiser with TT. Before reading SSH I would regularly fold TT, or cold call if i was getting multiway action. I've always figured "What hands would UTG raise with there that I can beat?" Obviously JJ, QQ, KK , AA destroy me, but AK AQ AJ KQ hands a 3bet would be best. My question is how is it a good play to reraise with TT's if you know that your hand is either a huge dog or a slight favorite when committing chips to the pot? It seems I fail to understand a fundamental concept here.

[steveyz]

Well, if you know that UTG will only raise with those hands you listed, then re-raising is probably not a great idea. But a lot of people will raise UTG with a wider range of hands, including hands that you dominate like 99, 88, 77 and ATs, KTs, etc. In the games I play (Party 15/30), my default play is to 3-bet here. I will cold call if I think there's a good chance my 3-bet will not get it heads up and just calling will get the pot 4+ handed. I don't think I've ever folded to a UTG raise, although if I paid more attention to my opponents, folding is probably the right play against good opponents with tight UTG raising standards. These opponents are few and far between.

[Softrock]

Some may think this is an over elementary question but I think it's one we should continuously debate (because so many mis-think here). If it's going to truly be multi-way then of course you don't raise and 5 plus players to the flop will get you the most money with TT. However, if it's not multi-way, then you are in the best shape if you can get heads up with overcards. However, you well state the issue - if it's an overpair instead of overcards you are a big "dog" and can easily lose quite a bit depending on how the hand plays out. I believe too many players assume they're against overcards when playing this hand in a situation such as you describe. The proper play has alot to do with who your opponent is. If I'm against a very tight BTF player who raises UTG I may muck. However, as the raise gets later and/or the raising requirements of the bettor lessen, then I'm more inclined to 3-bet. There are many good players who will pretty much only raise with AQ or higher or TT pairs and higher from UTG. Three-betting such a player is not wise.

That said, if there is only action from the raiser, I think you must either raise or fold, only smooth call to occassionally vary your play (like maybe one time out of 25).

[David Steele]

I was wondering how big of a mistake it is to not reraise an UTG or UTG+1 raiser with TT

Its not an error at all, the book is wrong about this.

D.

[Softrock]

Your reasoning please....

[steveyz]

Well, if the UTG raiser will only raise AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ, then it is about 8:3 that your opponent has overcards instead of an overpair. Also, because you have position on your opponent, if he has JJ or QQ and the flop comes AKx, he may just check fold the flop. The key is not to spew chips against an obvious overpair, but assuming your opponent is on overcards is the prudent play until you are "told" otherwise.

[David Steele]

I have my reasons, but in this case I am not
going to disclose them. Not trying to be difficult
so just consider my comment as an opinion if you prefer.

D.

[3rdCheckRaise]

I like play that hand HU and with position and 3 betting is the only way to go.If there is nobody traped between you and original raiser go ahead and 3bet. Against AA-JJ you are a big dog but a dog with position and you are a bit better then a slight favorite against big ace or KQ. You not in all-in situation and your opponent may not last to the river with those hands so you are in a lot better shape there...

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Max,

Against loose, bad players, which is what Ed's book is more specifically geared towards, your opponents aren't considering their hands realtive to position. In most cases they will raise with hands far worse than what a thinking player will come in with upfront. Get your money in and narrow down the field. If they call behind you, and only bad players will call 3 cold, who cares.

Against super-tight opponents that you know will only raise upfront with JJ-AA and AK, then a fold is correct. Think of your hand in relative terms to that of the range of hands your opponents will play.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
I have my reasons, but in this case I am not
going to disclose them. Not trying to be difficult
so just consider my comment as an opinion if you prefer.

D.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been posting on this site for some time now. I don't have 6,000 posts, but in large part that's because I take time to think carefully about every post I make AND TO INCLUDE AN EXPLANATION OF THAT THINKING IN THE POST. I may not be right all the time or even any of the time, but, at least, I hope, my reasoning gives others something to think about themselves.

Many others -- veterans and newbies alike -- obviously don't subscribe to that approach and, IMHO, it has caused this forum to degenerate to the point where I start to wonder whether it's even worth bothering.

David, your post is useless. It's arrogant. And it's counterproductive. Someone asks a question. They probably struggled with it on some level and eventually came here for guidance. Your post and the hundreds of slightly less egregious ones like it that appear on this forum every week provide absolutely no gudance whatsoever. To be frank, I don't care whether you or anyone else BELIEVES 3-betting TT is a mistake or not, I want to know WHY you hold that belief. It is ONLY that explanation that will allow any of us to learn, to understand the game, and to improve.

Please stop.

[Softrock]

You said what I was thinking and I decided to be more diplomatic and just ignore the response. I don't know that anyone ever learned anything from an answer that's essentially "Trust me, I'm right, and I'm smarter than you."

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have my reasons, but in this case I am not
going to disclose them. Not trying to be difficult
so just consider my comment as an opinion if you prefer.

D.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are you on this site?

You're trying to sound important and knowledgable actually makes you look like a fool.

[astroglide]

extrapolating your reasoning, the same should be done with pocket twos

[David Steele]

I don't care whether you or anyone else BELIEVES 3-betting TT is a mistake or not


OK fine, ignore it, I thought a few people might find it useful, of course a full explanation is more useful, it's just that in this case I don't feel like giving it.


D.

[Joe Tall]

I have my reasons, but in this case I am not going to disclose them.

Wow, you have totally transformed my game, thanks.

[steveyz]

The other part of my reasoning which I included in my original response is that with TT there is a non negliable chance that you dominate the UTG raiser (if they had 77-99, ATs/KTs/QTs/JTs/T9s). Also, if only one other player cold calls, you have a much better chance of winning with TT unimproved.

Against an unobservant and weak-tight raiser and a tight rest of table that will rarely ever get in the way, 3-betting with 22 can be +EV. But that situation rarely ever comes up. Personally, TT is my cutoff for 3-betting here. I'd do it with 99 or 88 if the raiser was especially bad and the rest of the table are likely to fold. Otherwise I either fold or cold call if I can expect multi-way action.

[JimmyV]

"To be frank, I don't care whether you or anyone else BELIEVES 3-betting TT is a mistake or not, I want to know WHY you hold that belief."

Yahtzee!

That post should be required reading for those who want to participate in the forum.



[ QUOTE ]
Against an unobservant and weak-tight raiser and a tight rest of table that will rarely ever get in the way, 3-betting with 22 can be +EV. But that situation rarely ever comes up. Personally, TT is my cutoff for 3-betting here. I'd do it with 99 or 88 if the raiser was especially bad and the rest of the table are likely to fold. Otherwise I either fold or cold call if I can expect multi-way action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100%. Astro, what's your cutoff for three-betting? Wouldn't you three-bet JJ? How different is IT from TT?

Three-bet or fold in this scenario; otherwise QJ and K9 are calling the single raise in the blinds and the field has a zillion outs.

Well put, Steveyz.

JimmyV

[ChrisW]

It seems that there is a semi-bluff element to the weaker reraising hands. In other words, part of the EV from reraising TT comes from the fact that your opponent fears AA, KK, etc.

Consider a player who you know for sure reraises only with AA through 99. You bet UTG with TT, he reraises, and everyone else folds. You call, and the flop comes 2 5 8 rainbow. Let's assume, realistically I think, that he'll bet the whole way and that he will never lay down his hand. Presumably, you would check and fold, since calling him down would cost you 5 small bets to win 12.5, and you'll only win about 26% of the time, which is not good enough to be +EV even if we assume that you'll always get a checkraise in when a ten comes later. Thus, his reraise with 99 gained him money even though it was weaker than your TT.

I'm guessing that against a typical UTG raiser, TT falls into this semibluff category. That is, if your average reraising hand were TT, then reraising with TT would show a loss. Perhaps Ed Miller will enlighten us.

[steveyz]

I think the decision between re-raising, cold calling, and folding for a hand like TT is extremely opponent dependent. Not just dependant on the pre-flop raiser, but also on the rest of the table.
Also, in general, and especially online, most of your opponents will not be very observant of your range of raising and 3-betting hands.

[SA125]

I think the biggest problem isn't one of EV with TT in those spots, it's one of knowing what your comfort level is when faced with painted flops there.

If you hate betting into or calling overs, even with position, or releasing your raised hands early, TT can give you headaches. If you don't mind being agro and playing against overs h/u, then it'll be easier there for you to play it.

Steve A.

[James282]

I think astro three-bets down to 99 with no read.
Peace,
James

[James282]

Pretty interesting post Chris.
-James

[Piers]

If the players behind you call raises too much then call to encouage them in. Otherwise reraise to split the blinds with the raiser, or possably fold if the riser is very tight.

In the games SSH covers, I think calling will usually be correct here.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Chris,

Against poor playing opponents, your reraise here is for value and to attempt to thin the field of any overcard hands that may outflop you. You may still get called by players behind you, and therefore should still look at this as a raise for value.

The semi-bluff value will only come into play against better players that will also raise upfront with hands weaker than yours, and/or play cautiously or weak-tight after the flop for fear of monster hands. You will also hide your big pairs better in these games because you've expanded your range of 3-betting cards for later hands. Just understand that against bad players this doesn't matter as they don't put you on anything and can't be semi-bluffed.

[mplspoker]

Ultimately, not 3 betting TT is just as large of a mistake as not 3 betting AK. If you cold 2 cold with either you could be consistently losing to and/or folding on flop or turn to worse hands. If you 3 Bet you can get similar hands to fold when they don't improve but board isn't very appealing.

In addition people will call 3 cold and out of blinds with very questionable hands and you are only losing to 4 hands JJ-AA.

Just straight calling with TT is a huge mistake and is just as much of a beginners mistake as not 3 betting AK.....

[na4bart]

What is SSH? Is this by 2+2?

[bobbyi]

Ed Miller's "Small Stakes Hold 'Em". Yes, it's 2+2.

[elysium]

hi max

before not reraising, you need to be very sure that 3 or more opponents left to act will also call the raise. the only time to muck it would be in a tough game against an UTGr who never raises in without ABC.