A hand I found interesting

[durron597]

This player has only played two hands so far, one hand where he slowplayed a set of 7s (AKx7 board, flop check-check) he made on the turn, and one where he made a huge UTG raise and everyone folded.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money)

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 1: CO ($1,375 in chips)
Seat 2: Button ($1,410 in chips)
Seat 3: SB (Villian) ($2,330 in chips)
Seat 4: BB ($2,100 in chips)
Seat 5: durron597 [ A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] ($1,840 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG+1 ($870 in chips)
Seat 7: UTG+2 ($1,370 in chips)
Seat 8: MP1 ($1,670 in chips)
Seat 9: MP2 ($1,010 in chips)
Seat 10: MP3 ($1,025 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB (Villian) posts blind ($15), BB posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 calls $30, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls $30, SB (Villian) bets $100, BB calls $85, durron597 calls $85, Button calls $85.

FLOP [board cards 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,9/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
SB (Villian) bets $100, BB folds, durron597 calls $100, Button folds.

TURN [board cards 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,9/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif,10/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
SB (Villian) bets $100, durron597 calls $100.

RIVER [board cards 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,9/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif,10/images/graemlins/heart.gif,4/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
SB (Villian) bets $125, durron597 bets $1,525 and is all-in,

[MrFeelNothin]

Looks like a good position to bluff from your perspective. Hes clearly got an overpair, but is scared of those 10s. However if I were him I would put you on a missed flush/str8 draw when you go all in. I dont see you playing any hands with 10s in them from UTG. You could have been slowplaying the 99 or 33 boats, but it feels more like AQ or KQ spades. Nevertheless, even if hes pretty sure youre bluffing, thats a damn hard call to make. Results?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see you playing any hands with 10s in them from UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't have AT here?

[MrFeelNothin]

I dont play A10 there and I assume you dont, but that is not to say the majority dont, so YES, he has to acknowledge the possibility of A10. A10 probably raises his weak flop bet there however.

This is not to say I dont think it was a good play, im not sold on it, its risky, but seems to me it would work most of the time against decent opposition. The key being finding the player who is capable of making a laydown, which it sounds like this player is.

[RobGW]

Durron,

Why did you call on the flop? You probably don't have the best hand, you aren't getting correct odds, the button is still to act behind you, even if you hit a pair it may not be good, you dont have a real read on how the villian palys yet, etc, etc. I would fold this one easily.
On a side note, where do you play? There is a lot of money in play compared to Party where they start with $800. I am sick of losing the first hand I play and then being is desperation mode!

[PrayingMantis]

I understand what you were trying to do, but I don't like it for a few reasons:

a) Your PF limp/call-a-raise from EP with AQo looks problematic to me, especially with 2 others (execpt you and SB) who are interested in this hand. If you decide to play this hand from this position, you are losing value by playing it this way, IMO.

b) I undersand you don't respect his weakish bet on the flop, and put him on "missed/scared", but you call it down with another player acting behind, and at this point you should be thinking about isolating villain, if you are about to make a move like you did later on. Do you have a read on button?

c) When you call his turn bet, you must already have in mind your action on the river. But can you really tell this player will fold to a push? This is a 10$ SNG. Players are pretty much capable of calling you down with AK, or some low PP. It's early and he has you covered (by a small amount).

So, I see the thinking behind this, and playing by "representing" a hand is a very important thing in poker, but here I think it's too much of a gamble, because of the buy-in, the early stage, and the fact that you don't have a strong read. Some players can play like he did with JJ-AA too, and will call you on the river too many times.

[MrFeelNothin]

I was assuming he was calling on the flop planning to bluff later. This is definitely not something I would make a habit of, but he did get a useful turn card.

Im assuming this was on stars?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you were trying to do, but I don't like it for a few reasons:

a) Your PF limp/call-a-raise from EP with AQo looks problematic to me, especially with 2 others (execpt you and SB) who are interested in this hand. If you decide to play this hand from this position, you are losing value by playing it this way, IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

I limped because I'm UTG. If it was suited I would have raised. Then I called because I would have position on the EP raiser; I didn't know the button would call too. I figured the stacks were deep enough to make a call of that size; I would fold preflop on Party.

[ QUOTE ]

b) I undersand you don't respect his weakish bet on the flop, and put him on "missed/scared", but you call it down with another player acting behind, and at this point you should be thinking about isolating villain, if you are about to make a move like you did later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just didn't respect his bet at all, as you said, but too many times the small bet is extreme strength, so I didn't want to raise. Also I didn't want to "isolate" villian with my ace-high; I figured flatcalling gives me more options to bluff later and also let me see the turn for free.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you have a read on button?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first hand Button had played; so not really except I suppose he was pretty tight.

[ QUOTE ]

c) When you call his turn bet, you must already have in mind your action on the river. But can you really tell this player will fold to a push? This is a 10$ SNG. Players are pretty much capabable of calling you down with AK, or some low PP. It's early and he has you covered (by a small amount).


[/ QUOTE ]

The hand where he slowplayed his set he check-called the turn and check-raised the river. I figured if he had a real hand he would either be checking or making real bets, not these small bets.

One the river I was going to fold to a big bet (one where he'd have to call because of stack sizes if I pushed) or push over a small one or a check.

[ QUOTE ]

So, I see the thinking behind this, and playing by "representing" a hand is a very important thing in poker, but here I think it's too much of a gamble, because of the buy-in, the early stage, and the fact that you don't have a strong read. Some players can play like he did with JJ-AA too, and will call you on the river too many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just really felt his tiny bet three streets in a row really meant "I have a hand that missed this flop". If I had to put him on a hand, I would say 88 or maybe AK.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Durron,

Why did you call on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't respect his flop bet, since it was so small compared to the size of the pot. Look at what I did on the river; I had such an action in mind when I decided to call.

[ QUOTE ]

On a side note, where do you play? There is a lot of money in play compared to Party where they start with $800. I am sick of losing the first hand I play and then being is desperation mode!

[/ QUOTE ]

This was on PokerRoom.

[PrayingMantis]

In regard to playing AQo from UTG: this is a whole big subject to discuss, so let's not get into it here. But IMO, I don't see a good enough reason to limp with AQo and raise with AQs. It's NL, pretty short stacks (yes, even ~50xBB is short in terms of NL), although not as short as party. You earn money with a hand like AQ by hitting TP against weaker aces or weaker Qs. And for that you better thin the field PF and get yourself a loose caller. But that's not the question.

As to all other points you make - they are all pretty much based upon one or two hands you've seen SB playing. This is very close to zero information. I fully understand your reasoning for the play, but for it to work enough times you should be pretty sure SB is a thinking player, who can recognize a "representation" of a hand, and can also fold if he feels he's beaten. I don't think you can tell this about him, few hands into a low buy-in in SNG. The fact that you had button to act behind you on the flop, makes your flop call even more problematic, as I've mentioned.

Moves similar in their essence to the one you describe here can be very strong in the right spot, IMO. I don't think this was the right spot.

Don't get me wrong, I think that making such moves and thinking about them is a crucial step in developing more and more weapons. So I agree it is interesting to discuss, and not just a simply bad move or somthing.

[durron597]

So are you saying I should save moves like this for when I move up? I've been looking for ways to build my stack early on, and so I decided to give this a try this time. My BR is deep enough that I can afford to try this in an attempt to improve my game at a $10+1.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying I should save moves like this for when I move up? I've been looking for ways to build my stack early on, and so I decided to give this a try this time. My BR is deep enough that I can afford to try this in an attempt to improve my game at a $10+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, it's not only a question of moving up. Some pretty "sophisticated" moves can be good and profitable also in low buy-ins, in the right spot and against the right opponents. But of course, as you move up, you find more and more players who actually think about what _you_ might have (high percentage of low limit players can hardly understand the idea of putting someone on a hand. They see their cards and the board. Not much beyond that. OTOH, there are some very strong players there, a very small minority).

So the idea should be playing according to the field.

I'll give you a funny example. I was playing once a $100 buy-in on stars. We were maybe 6-7 left, blinds are getting high. I was multi-tabling, so I had one second in which I wasn't concentrated (it's rare when I play, at least I hope so...), and I thought it was folded to me on CO, but I missed a limp from UTG. So I "open-raised" with some garbage. It wasn't a "typical" raise, because I didn't calculate the EP limper.

Now, button called, and all other folded. Flop came AQx two-tones. I checked, and button made kind of smallish bet. I knew him because I played him quite a few times. I sensed weakness so I pushed. He thought for a _long_ time, then called with AQ. top two-pair. I busted. I was quite amazed by the fact it took him *so* long to call, he wasn't the kind to slow-roll.

I played with him again a few games later, and asked him why it took him so long to call with his top 2p. And he said he was actually thinking about folding it, because of my PF strange raise, and my c/r all-in. he "knew" my play. He was thinking about it. Something really bothered him. He feard AA or QQ, and he _really_ wasn't a weak-tight or anything. My hand wasn't much better then 72o, I'll tell you that.

This funny thing happened some months ago, but I have thought about it a lot since. Many small things in my play were changed because of "such" hands (and hands like the one you've posted), but this one is special, because it was born as a mis-click.

[Jason Strasser]

I like what PM has said so far about this hand, I just want to add my personal view.

Preflop, I don't think this was so bad. He's getting fairly good odds on his call, and if the hero is ahead often enough on an ace high or queen high flop, I think everything is ok.

But preflop is a whole different discussion... Past the preflop action, I would say this is an average bluff. I am assuming you think your AQ is no good. Against some really LAG opponents, I would think calling on the river is the best play.

If this player is reasonable, your AQ is no good. But it also does not look like the opponent has a strong hand. The best way, IMO, to win a pot like this, is by flat calling the flop and raising the turn. Traditionally, this is a move with the highest degree of 'strength'. It's easy to put a move like you on a hand like a busted flush draw, a missed straight draw, missed over cards (ace high), or nothing. I think if I had 88 in this spot I would seriously think about calling.

OTOH, if you raised the turn after flat calling the flop, I would tend to give you more credit. Most draws either raise the flop or call the turn, and most made hands tend to wait till the turn to raise. I would definitely raise the turn to about 600, and then push on the river.

-Jason

[durron597]

Jason:

Thanks for your comments. I agree with basically everything you say, except: if I had a ten, while I (probably) would have raised the flop, would a guy who just made his trips raise the turn?

Maybe a small raise would be better than the flatcall. The pot was 600 or so, so maybe if I make it 700 to go? He's not getting odds if he's betting a flush draw and it's just small enough that it looks like I want a call (I think).

[Jason Strasser]

Often, a player with a hand like JTs who (somehow) saw this flop, would tend to call the flop and raise the turn because of kicker issues ('what are the odds someone has the other ten?' line of thinking)... But I see your point.

In terms of the size of your raise... Ideally I'd make this on the smaller side. I really think a flush draw is a very unlikely hand, as the majority of hands that would be drawing would tend to not raise preflop, with a few obvious exceptions. I want to have enough to either fire a big bullet on the river, or back off. I think raising to 600 is even a little big here, 500 may do... That way your bullet on the river is even larger.
-Jason

[PrayingMantis]

Jason,

The points you make are very valid, but I still don't like it against an essentially unknown opponents at a $10 buy-in. Remember, it's not a $200 SNG! I don't like the raise on the turn, as I didn't like the call on the flop here (althout raising the turn might be better than flat calling, from some aspects) because I'm putting too much money in this pot, and if this clown calls me with his whatever hand I'd just want to puke (and pushing on the river after he calls my raise on the turn is suicidal on such buy-in). I don't know him enough, to do all that, plus I risk too much for relatively little (assuming I have a healthy and fat ROI at these games, of course).

His smallish bets can mean many things (sure, most chances he has nothing too. But the question is: what sort of nothing? and how much does he love his nothing?), and I'm sure there will plenty of chances in this specific game to get chips in better ways.

You are both talking about "will a T raise the flop, or call it and only raise trips, then push the river?", but IMO, you are talking WAY over the head of a $10 typical player (and without more information, he's a typical). Sure he might fold because he fears the trips, but he could also be a "brave" player, who puts me on a bluff. This might be a classic case of going too far, too early, with *nothing* as your hand. It goes against the very basics of playing low-limit SNGs.

[durron597]

We're about 15 hands in, and this is only the third hand he's played. Also, I saw his slowplay a set, and make a big raise preflop. All of those things put together make me think that he's not a typical 10+1 player.

Anyway, results:

He thought for awhile and folded. This hand gave me enough chips that I wasn't crippled on an unfortuante hand that happened later and was able to build up enough of a stack to take second (HU ended when with even 7.5xBB each my A3o push got called by 44). Villian in this hand took third after building a big stack early and then losing it with some poor yet understandable plays.

So my next question is this: how much evidence do you think is required before you can establish whether a player is thinking or not? As I said in IRC, the early levels are the only time in an SnG where the stacks are deep enough to try outplaying people and build a stack regardless of what cards you have; but if you run on the assumption that "they will make unfavorable decisions because they're bad players" I feel like you can end up more weak tight than is necessary. Perhaps the way to beat low limit SnGs (get an ITM% above 60%) is to figure out who is bluffable and then build a stack from that? Remember: "bad" does not always mean "loose".

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
We're about 15 hands in, and this is only the third hand he's played. Also, I saw his slowplay a set, and make a big raise preflop. All of those things put together make me think that he's not a typical 10+1 player.


[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that he's a bit tighter than a typical (edit: $10) SNG player? 15 hands is absolutely nothing, especially at early levels. you could easily get complete crap that even a monkey wouldn't play. And what does the fact the he SP a set tells you here? that if he bets a bit weakly he has nothing and will fold? too many assumptions. The fact that he made a big raise PF early does not mean much either (too big raises are usualy a fishy play). I feel you are trying to defend the assumption that he's not a typical $10 player very strongly, but I'm not convinced. And as Jason also mentioned, some "non-typical" $10 players might call you down with some PP, figuring you're on a missed draw. But here the danger is much much bigger, and the reward is much less relevant. It's only my opinion, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
but if you run on the assumption that "they will make unfavorable decisions because they're bad players" I feel like you can end up more weak tight than is necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I'm as far as possible from a weak tight player while playing low-limit SNGs (and I play them quite a lot, occasionaly). Not trying a huge river bluff on an unknown player is very far from "weak-tight".



[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the way to beat low limit SnGs (get an ITM% above 60%)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where did you come with this above 60% ITM figure, as a criterion for beating the game. First, you will not get to this number. Second, forget ITM. ROI is the important thig. I had long stetches of 50-60% ROI while playing 11$ SNGs, without making such a move like you did here (but it doesn't mean I didn't bluff, and quite a lot, at the right circumstances. I don't think this hand is a good example for the right circumstances).

[ QUOTE ]
is to figure out who is bluffable and then build a stack from that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You will usually won't be able to figure out _who_ is bluffable at the early stages (especuially not enough that you would like to push against him on the river with nothing). However, you will be able to win enough by value betting, by taking down small pots without risking too much, against players you _can_ read as somewhat weak, and by taking advantage of general bad -CEV play of players around you. Simply concentrating on building a stack is much more relevant to MTT. And in SNGs, it much more important in higher buy-in's than in lower ones.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember: "bad" does not always mean "loose".

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for reminding me that... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. In my book, "bad" is also playing too aggressively with not enough reasons, conditions, or reward.

Anyway, it's only my opinion. I don't think that it's a good move (all streets, IMO), but if you still think it is (and I have a feeling you do), fair enough.

[Jason Strasser]

PM,

Do you ever just get into a hand against an opponent, and think at some point, 'I'm going to win this pot'?

My line was for that type of strategy. I agree that the flop call and turn play are a little bit shady, but if you make a decision early on in the hand to show strength in order to take it down later, I don't really mind what the hero does here.

Anyway, I think you are right about 10 dolla sngs. I am overthinking.

-Jason

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever just get into a hand against an opponent, and think at some point, 'I'm going to win this pot'?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what happened to me after his flop bet. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever just get into a hand against an opponent, and think at some point, 'I'm going to win this pot'?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. That's why I don't think durron's play was really _bad_. He kind of acted according to the inner dynamic of the hand, the weakness he sensed (which I completely agree about), and the fact that the turn card was another T. I like all this, but I think that in this particular case, with no real read a few hands into a $10 SNG (and some other small details: button acting behind on flop, turn call that you have written about), it is too reckless.

If you watch a $10 SNG, you'll see on early rounds, that people are making such moves on each other, quite constantly (Edit: I'm sure all of them feel: 'I'm going to win this pot!'). sometimes they get a call by a ridiculous hand and bust, sometimes they win a big pot but keep doing it, building a huge stack or busting as well. I can tell you with confidence that this kind of play, without at least a few better conditions (being HU to begin with, for instance, and a somewhat stronger read) does not worth the risk in a low-limit SNG. People will soon enough make huge mistakes against you (and others), that trying to bluff them in a huge way early in order to build a stack is not a great strategy, in my opinion, and quite needless.

I've read something parappa wrote in a post here (it was in a reply to some low-limit bubble hands, that you had replied to as well):

"I don't feel that aggression is rewarded as much as it might be in tighter/tougher games."

(Tighter/tougher are of course higer buy-in games). This is exacly how I feel in general, and in regard to this hand. But parappa said it better.

[durron597]

You seem to think that this is the sort of thing I do ALL the time. I've played 150 $10+1s, and this is the first time I've done something like this in an early round. Every bone in my body said that this was a good spot. I don't know, you're right that this was a very risky play. But I'm finding that (even with this good blind structure) that I too often end up shorstacked on the bubble, and I felt that this was a good spot to try to build up my stack some. Definitely a play that should only be used in the right spot. I don't know, maybe you had to be there for this SnG.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that this is the sort of thing I do ALL the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. All I said was in regard to this specific hand, in these specific conditions. On the contrary, the fact that you are posting it, and thinking about it, discussing it, shows me that it's a rare move for you.

[ QUOTE ]
I've played 150 $10+1s, and this is the first time I've done something like this in an early round.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence, but I thought you have played much more. (Maybe it's actually a compliment.../images/graemlins/grin.gif). 150 is really a very very small number of games, if that's all that you have played. So I think it's great you are trying all sorts of moves. Don't let what I'm saying stop you from doing what you feel is right. I'm sure you'll get to your own conclusions at some point, and they might be different from mine.

[ QUOTE ]
Every bone in my body said that this was a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I can't argue with your bones! /images/graemlins/wink.gif You posted it here, and I gave it my best thinking and analysis. I might be wrong of course, but the fact that you really really felt it's the right move does not really help discussing it, IMO. BTW, many times people who play poker feel they make the _perfect_ read and play, but the move fails. They quickly forget it. However, when it works (like in this case) they think: 'I just felt it!', and keep remembering it. Many times I made a terrible move that worked fine. It felt great. Only after a lot of thinking, and a lot of games, I realized it was actually terrible move, and WHY it was so (only an example, I'm not saying your play was terrible).

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm finding that (even with this good blind structure) that I too often end up shorstacked on the bubble

[/ QUOTE ]

There could be MANY reasons for this, and actually, this is quite ordinary with a strong player. However, you do have to find places to pick some chips. Reading your posts, I'm sure you are constantly thinking about this, and I think you have very good instincts (reading what you write), so you'll find your way.

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely a play that should only be used in the right spot. I don't know, maybe you had to be there for this SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe... /images/graemlins/wink.gif But I wouldn't be so sure about it.

Anyway, it's interesting to discuss it.

[golFUR]

Its the end of the work day and I am changing locations. Bummer timing as this post looks like one I'd like to be all over.

I agree with the turn raise though it looks as if I'd have missed t25 in profit.

This play, and a dozen others like, I've been making left and right in $5s and $10s and I couldn't disagree with PrayingMantis more. There is nothing wrong with these plays in the small dollar SnGs. The trick isn't 'dumbing down' the play to something even a little $5 player can understand, its just finding the right trick for the right player.

I also believe an orbit or two is plenty for a working read on a player. Granted you'd love a month's experience with everyone before the SnG even starts, you'll never get that though, make do with two orbits or get used to the idea that you'll never get to make the good plays. He bought a cheap card with a pocket pair and then check raised it... he understands that he needs to defend his set now that there is more money and more cards out there, did he miss any profit by not slowplaying one more card? That one hand is enough to get a decent handle on a player, to determine if he is capable of a laydown or not.

Oh yeah, one last thing... I don't like the all in on the river. I think it looks too over the top. This is also why I support the turn raise. He leads out 100 on the turn again, you bump it 200. To me this looks like you are representing a T but afraid of the flush, or representing a T but wonder about his pocket pair hitting on the river. If the turn comes the last flush card what were you gonna do?

Regardless, it didn't, now because you raised the turn he is likely to check the river to you. You can now make what appears to be a value bet, say 400 or so. I believe he is even more likely to fold to a 400 bet properly set up than he is to a (potentially an over the top bluff) all in that 'comes out of nowhere'.

[PrayingMantis]

I really wanted to reply to your post, but I just could not understand big parts of what you say. I am serious. Maybe it's my English. The things I did understand looked too weird, so I'll just let it go. Play well, and don't forget the 90% rule!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[golFUR]

[ QUOTE ]
I just could not understand big parts of what you say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either.

[ QUOTE ]
I am serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am too.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's my English.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe so.

[ QUOTE ]
The things I did understand looked too weird, so I'll just let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably best, I'll try to do likewise.

Thank you so much for your constructive effort though.

[durron597]

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money), hand #

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 2: pootie27 ($1,630 in chips)
Seat 3: shontz ($2,360 in chips)
Seat 5: RedBull10 ($1,235 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] ($1,145 in chips)
Seat 7: linryi1 ($1,130 in chips)
Seat 8: bbones1 ($2,625 in chips)
Seat 9: wiconuc ($2,425 in chips)
Seat 10: lilbigj ($2,450 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
RedBull10 posts blind ($50), durron597 posts blind ($100).

PRE-FLOP
linryi1 folds, bbones1 folds, wiconuc bets $200, lilbigj folds, pootie27 folds, shontz calls $200, RedBull10 folds, durron597 calls $100.

FLOP [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,2/images/graemlins/spade.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
durron597 checks, wiconuc bets $100, shontz folds, durron597 bets $945 and is all-in,

[PrayingMantis]

This one I like much better! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

(if you are interested to know...) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jason Strasser]

Thanks for the posts PM,

I think I'll just stay away from 10 dollar sng posts and such. I feel like everytime I offer advice for it the same people tell me that what I am doing is not necessary, or plain old not the best idea for the game.

Or maybe instead of not posting, I should really think about 10 dollar sngs. Maybe I'll play a few or something.

-Jason

[PrayingMantis]

Jason,

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'll just stay away from 10 dollar sng posts and such. I feel like everytime I offer advice for it the same people tell me that what I am doing is not necessary, or plain old not the best idea for the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'd love to read your advice for any hand and any buy-in. I'm sure this is true for all others. Thinking about a hand is simply thinking about a hand. However, the *big picture* in lower buy-ins is usualy very very different from the one at higher ones. So while your advice for a specific hand might be actually great, if you consider more elements, the "correct" move could turn into something very different. I'm pretty sure you know all that. This is the whole idea of adjustment.

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe instead of not posting, I should really think about 10 dollar sngs. Maybe I'll play a few or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to see you posting some hands from a $10 SNG! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[unfrgvn]

I'm interested to know why you like this. I assume because it's likely everyone missed the flop? I think I get called here by KJ everytime /images/graemlins/mad.gif

The thing is if he is called he is likely to have no outs outside of runner runner. I've really been trying to make sure when I make this sort of move I at least have some percieved outs. For instance if the hearts on the flop were diamonds.

But what do I know, I've just finished a streak of 15 str8 OTM.

[PrayingMantis]

I like it mainly because of these reasons:

a) it's late enough in the game, for me to assume that durron has some sort of a read.

b) durron needs chips.

c) MP makes a weak mini-raise PF (without a read: could mean some Ax, low pp, few Kx, and other hands). durron is getting 5.5:1 to see the flop, with a hand that has some nice potential.

d) durron checks like he should, IMO, to see MP acts. The fact that there's a K on the flop, reduces the probablity MP did raise with a K. MP makes the weakest mini-bet. Button folds. durron pushes because MP does not have a hand, and will not call a very strong check-raise all-in of ~T1000 with a low PP (surely not Ax, unless maybe with the flush draw) in this stage of the game, also because durron has played quite tightly up until now, and does not have a loose, bluffer image.

Sure you are risking a call by KJ (for instance), but IMO, much more often this pattern does not indicate a K. It is all of course read and situation dependant, but I like it much more because it has a lot more consistency in it, with regard to conditions, reasons, and reward. The fact that it's a low buy-in SNG does not mean you don't have to take risks sometimes, in order to win the damm things! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[unfrgvn]

Thanks for your thoughts. I do agree that sometimes you just have to take your chances, lately my timing has been off on these things. Maybe I'll try to put a few HH's together in my own thread and see what you and others think.

Jason, I also like to read your thoughts, even if they sometimes apply more to the higher buy in's. After all, most of us want to get there someday.

[durron597]

Well, I was going to go for something a little more impotant for my 900th post, but I guess I can just wait for my 1000th post to make a benchmark thread. Anyhoo.

PrayingMantis posted exactly the reasons I thought the bluff was appropriate here. Firstly, I called the preflop bet since it was only a miniraise and I had a hand capable of hitting the flop well. Unfortunately, that's not what happened, but the preflop call is an easy one in my opinion.

One the flop, I checked because I had totally missed. However, when a tight yet not totally passive player made another small bet, I knew he didn't like that flop. If he had bet much more than that 100, I would have figured that this particular player had hit the flop and I should just fold. Thankfully, after the button folded I was closing the action here and I figured the odds of MP having anything here were pretty close to zero. I would have been extremely surprised if he called, and, in fact, he did not. This pot nearly doubled my stack, and was the first of many bluffs that I executed in this SnG. The entire table was very tight, and bbones1 ended up as a huge stack later in the tourney (it ALWAYS happens that the big stack ends up on my left, I don't know why...) but I was still stealing from him with impunity (though the blinds prevented me from growing much). He eventually got tired of me though:

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money), hand #340,503,282
Pittsburgh Single Table Tournament, 20 Sep 2004 10:52 PM

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 2: pootie27 ($655 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif,5/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($2,345 in chips)
Seat 8: bbones1 ($7,600 in chips)
Seat 9: wiconuc ($4,400 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
pootie27 posts blind ($200), durron597 posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
bbones1 folds, wiconuc calls $400, pootie27 folds, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
durron597 checks, wiconuc bets $650, durron597 bets $1,945 and is all-in, wiconuc calls $1,295.

TURN [board cards 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif ]


RIVER [board cards 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
durron597 shows [ 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif,5/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
wiconuc shows [ 8/images/graemlins/club.gif,A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
durron597 wins $4,890.

He ended up bubbling:

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money), hand #340,507,197
Pittsburgh Single Table Tournament, 20 Sep 2004 10:54 PM

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 2: pootie27 ($1,665 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($4,980 in chips)
Seat 8: bbones1 ($6,900 in chips)
Seat 9: wiconuc ($1,455 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
wiconuc posts blind ($300), pootie27 posts blind ($600).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 folds, bbones1 folds, wiconuc bets $1,155 and is all-in, pootie27 calls $855.

FLOP [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


TURN [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif,10/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


RIVER [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif,10/images/graemlins/heart.gif,5/images/graemlins/club.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
wiconuc shows [ J/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
pootie27 shows [ K/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
pootie27 wins $2,910.

The entire tournament I got no pockets except AK once and 99 once, except I did make some good calls like below:

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money), hand #340,510,199
Pittsburgh Single Table Tournament, 20 Sep 2004 10:55 PM

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 2: pootie27 ($1,920 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($5,280 in chips)
Seat 8: bbones1 ($7,800 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
pootie27 posts blind ($300), durron597 posts blind ($600).

PRE-FLOP
bbones1 folds, pootie27 bets $1,620 and is all-in, durron597 calls $1,320.

FLOP [board cards 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif,J/images/graemlins/spade.gif,7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


TURN [board cards 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif,J/images/graemlins/spade.gif,7/images/graemlins/heart.gif,A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


RIVER [board cards 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif,J/images/graemlins/spade.gif,7/images/graemlins/heart.gif,A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
pootie27 shows [ 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif,8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
durron597 shows [ Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
durron597 wins $3,840.

The final hand of this SnG (only fitting that I would go out this way; he thought for a long time before calling and told me his hand in the chat window, then continued to think some more):

No-limit Texas Hold'em $10+$1 (real money), hand #340,511,791
Pittsburgh Single Table Tournament, 20 Sep 2004 10:56 PM

View <previous | next> hand for this table

Seat 6: durron597 [ A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($7,200 in chips)
Seat 8: bbones1 ($7,800 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
durron597 posts blind ($300), bbones1 posts blind ($600).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 bets $1,200, bbones1 calls $900.

FLOP [board cards 2/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
bbones1 checks, durron597 bets $5,700 and is all-in, bbones1 calls $5,700.

TURN [board cards 2/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/spade.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]


RIVER [board cards 2/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/spade.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
durron597 shows [ A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
bbones1 shows [ A/images/graemlins/club.gif,7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
bbones1 wins $14,400.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason:

Thanks for your comments. I agree with basically everything you say, except: if I had a ten, while I (probably) would have raised the flop, would a guy who just made his trips raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this second- or third-level thinking?

If a guy who just made his trips wouldn't raise the turn, then the correct thing to do if you made trips would be to raise the turn, wouldn't it? In which case, you represent trips by raising the turn and it's the right spot to bluff.

[durron597]

I think it's an issue of how much respect I should be giving this guy. I was giving him enough respect to be thinking about my thought processes about my cards, but not enough respect to be thinking about what I was thinking about him.