Going Pro in Atlantic City

[McBluffin]

Hello, I've been an internet pro in the north east for over a year now. I'm 24 and I made more money this year playing online than at any job I could have gotten with my B.S. in computer science. However, I want to expand my horizons and start playing in person and so I'm considering a move to AC. So my question is, does anyone have advice on living in AC? I know the area has the reputation of being some what of a slum besides the casinos. So if anyone has any advice on the area within 30 min of AC, I would greatly appreciate it.

In case you care I have two reasons for wanting to make the move. 1: Even though I believe online is more profitable in general, I believe this changes as soon as you start reaching very high stakes (100/200 we'll say) due to the necessity to have the ability to read body language and other tells. Although I will say I have discovered a few reliable tells online that deal with pausing patterns before actions.
2: It is a long term goal/dream to start playing on the WPT and WSOP. For me it's not a question of finances. I could join today. It's a question of in person skill. Well, that's my situation and goals. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I will say I have discovered a few reliable tells online that deal with pausing patterns before actions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, except when they're going to the refrigerator or bathroom, answering the doorbell or telephone, checking on a crying child, distracted by a big pot on another table or something of interest on T.V. Other than that, the pauses probably have some significance.

[Mike Gallo]

Reconsider.

[scrub]

Mike nailed it.

scrub

[emp1346]

while i don't have any advice, i just wanna say i wish you well...

and also, don't expect much advice from here, as from everything i've seen everyone on here is both completely and utterly against going pro, and pretty cold to newbies...

oh well...

have fun...

[va_chier]

If you are playing live 40-80 or higher you really need to be in L.A.

cheers matt

[Mikey]

Bring your laptop with you.

[steamboatin]

Read Dr. Al's Psychology of Poker. Poker is way to good of a part-time job to mess it up trying to be a pro.

If you are successful now, don't screw it up. Keep doing whatever it is that you are doing and just fly in to AC from time to time.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
Read Dr. Al's Psychology of Poker. Poker is way to good of a part-time job to mess it up trying to be a pro.

If you are successful now, don't screw it up. Keep doing whatever it is that you are doing and just fly in to AC from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wholeheartedly agree with points 1 & 2 above.

[McBluffin]

I appreciate such fast responses. This is my first time using 2+2. As far as anyone trying to discourage me from going pro, your too late. Like I said I've been pro for a year and I absolutely love it. My reason for choosing AC of all places to get in person experience is because I'm from the North East and I don't really want to move far away, although I do consider it. Is anyone out there live in/near AC that can give me advice on moving to the area?

[steamboatin]

If you are going to buy a home check Goldenfeather.com and see if they handle the HUD repo's for that area. You can get a decent deal. If not find a Realtor that handles bank repo's, buying foreclosures is +EV.

If you can't afford to buy, you can't afford to go pro.

You can ask the other poker pros when you get there, most of them will have something they need to sell, if they still have anything.

[McBluffin]

It's funny that you would suggest that. I just finished reading that book about a week ago. I found that section particularly interesting, however I totally disagree with some of the points mostly as they apply to online. I probably should have said that I plan on playing online as my primary source of money, but probably about 2-3 days a week I would go to the casino's to get in person experience. Not so much for the money.

Here are the reason's Alan Schoonmaker makes for not quitting your day job followed by my humble opions:
1. You probably won't make it.
Thanks for the discouragement, however I already have online.
2. There is little money and no future.
Wrong. I cashed out $14,000 in August playing 10/20 (6 man max) and I'm ahead of that pace for september. Plus this is proportionately what I was making at 5/10 prior to my jump up to 10/20. I have over 35,000 hands in my poker tracker data base which shows that I'm making approx 3.5 BB per hour.
3. It's extremely unhealthy.
I generally agree with this, but I found it strange he didn't mention the stress caused by frustration as one of the unhealthy consequences. Also, 2 of his primary reasons for it being unhealthy are because you are seditary and tend to eat unhealthy. That is basically the same with the vast majority of jobs. Hence the obsesity plague in the USA. That's not poker's fault, it's yours.
4. It's a dreary life.
I'll agree it's not all it's cracked up to be, however I love it. He says pro's frequently work very long hours and that you would strike against these unfair work contitions at any other job. I work long hours because I love what I'm doing. I'd rather work 10-16 hours and love it, then work 8 hours and hate it. Maybe I'm just crazy... seriously.
5. But it's a great second job.
He is absolutely right.

Despite my criticizms I did enjoy the book. Right now I'm in the process of teaching my friends to play and I found this tremendously helpful. However, I did not like how he constantly tried to tell you that you are not good enough. Also, the section on not quiting your day job was not fair at all. He basically describes the worse case senario if you do make it. He also only lists the cons and none of the pros.

[bunky9590]

Dr. Al used to be based out of AC. He knows his stuff.

Keep playing online for money. Some of the better Pros that you never heard of are sitting 20-40 and above in the casinos. Its not like playing online. I am a much better live player than online. Its no contest.

I used to play the 10- through 20-40 4-5 nights a week back around 99'- 00'. Nice little earn but its definitely a wear on the body and mind.

I play online now for the challenge as well as the money, but I have no visions of playing full time in AC. even though I know and am on a first name basis with a lot of the regualrs there.

Be prepared if you sit above 20-40 to have a very deep roll and at least 6 months total reserve in your emergency fund.

Whle your at it, sit in the 5-10 PL game and tell Rocco Bunky sent you.

[va_chier]

Playing live is romantic but this is your job not a hobby. Playing live would hurt your income and you are also losing money if you are living in a state with income tax like nj.
Since you have been a pro for only a year you need to very careful. Most pros fail because they are bad at running a poker business not because of bad play.

cheers matt

[Mike Gallo]

Is anyone out there live in/near AC that can give me advice on moving to the area?

I doubt you would want to live in AC.

Look in Absecon or Brigantine.

[turnipmonster]

we're not trying to discourage you from turning pro, we're trying to discourage you from moving to AC, because it's pretty trashy and doesn't strike me as a really nice place to live. what's wrong with taking the bus/train from DC to AC weekly for a day? If I had lots of free time I might do that, but would never move to AC. I think it would be hard to make friends with people my age.

--turnipmonster

[Lazymeatball]

Ever consider south eastern Connecticut?

[highlife]

how many hours of poker have you played in AC?

[McBluffin]

Never even been there. But the idea struck me and I fell in love with it. I'm not one to make rash decisions, so that's why I'm asking and planning to go there on Thursday for a visit and stay for USA World Poker Championship.

[McBluffin]

I've been to Foxwoods a few times and I do like it. It is a very good suggestion. However, and I'm probably wrong, but is there anything there except foxwoods? I'm a very social guy and could not stand to live out in the middle of nowhere. I thought AC would be more of a fit for me. Although I'm starting too see it might suck. But if anyone has advice on a fun area's to live close to Foxwoods, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Glenn]

Dude just ignore what everyone has said here. As someone who did what you intend to do (also 24 yrs old, mainly internet pro, live near AC play live for amusement, although I've been a pro longer), I can say it's not so bad at all. Anyhow, instead of refuting each silly thing someone posted in this thread...just PM me if you have any specific questions or maybe we can meet up for lunch when you come down here for the USPC.

[Mikey]

there are a lot of decent places just around Atlantic City, like a 15-30 mile radius of the actual city.

I live 20 minutes from NYC.

Would I go and work there, sure!
Would I want to live there, nahh....

[Lazymeatball]

the only fun thing to do outside of Foxwoods is go to Mohegan Sun.
Probably 45 mintues from Providence, an hour from Hartford, an hour and a half to 2 hours from Boston.

So Cons: in the middle of nowhere
Pros: not in New Jersey

[NJchick]

Good luck making taking a shot in AC. I personally think you are on the wrong coast for turning pro.

[eyeski]

I grew up in South Jersey and spent alot of time in the AC area. Ventnor, Marate and Longport are all nice communities on the same island as AC. You should be able to find cheap rentals off season, summer is another matter. Brigantine would be another town very close.

[eyeski]

sorry, it's Margate, not Marate

[RiverMel]

An hour from Foxwoods. Tons of great restaurants. Lots of clubs. Some inexpensive housing opportunities. Despite what you may have heard, plenty of very nice neighborhoods.

Paul Darden and four Foxwoods pros that I personally know live in New Haven. PM me or respond here if you have questions.

[turnipmonster]

point taken, there are a lot of nice places in south jersey. still, no one has suggested the guy move to AC, just near AC. AC itself is not a nice place to live.

--turnipmonster

[Ghazban]

If you aren't going to be playing live every day, you could move to NYC or Boston and be within a couple hours of Foxwoods and/or Atlantic City. The drive out to wouldn't kill you if you only were going a couple times a week. NYC has some clubs where you can play live, too (don't ask me for specifics-- I'm just repeating what I've heard) and that's definitely not the middle of nowhere.

[PoorLawyer]

Move to philly and you can be to AC real quick and still live in a city that isnt pawn shops on every corner

[Brudder Andrusha]

I really can't believe how many negatives have been said about Atlantic City!!!

I have a place on the Boardwalk, south of the Hilton, looking south!

Its a fantastic place!

Fresh air, beach, biking, close to main drag but far enough to have all the gambler dregs not wander down and see the good living.

It is my *dream* relaxation place!!!

The big difference for me is that I'm there only on weekends and it took me *19 years* to get (And not from playing poker!)

I agree if you can't afford a place then you shouldn't be going there in the first...

I also have anudder place in Kyiv.

Check it out here! (http://www.dynamicwebspace.com/10MB/duke_andy/TRIP_YKPAIHA.html)

[berya]

http://www.dynamicwebspace.com/10MB/duke_andy/Day_05.html

21. Platform #1 Central Railway Station.

I have seen this platform many many times as I have lived almost half my life (5 minute walk from this place!) on Yriczkovo.

Nice very nice pictures.

[samz]

I would want to factor in cost of living -

You can get a much nicer place in Philly than in NYC.

The upside to NYC is that you can get plenty of experience against good players without leaving town - also the down side.

[Brudder Andrusha]

Pryvit Berya...

I'm glad that it brought back memories.

I don't know which Platform is better!

The one in Atlantic City or the one in Kyiv!!!

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
An hour from Foxwoods. Tons of great restaurants. Lots of clubs. Some inexpensive housing opportunities. Despite what you may have heard, plenty of very nice neighborhoods.

Paul Darden and four Foxwoods pros that I personally know live in New Haven. PM me or respond here if you have questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you could say that I've been a pro this summer, and I live in New Haven. I've played a lot at Foxwoods and I've played a lot online. I would never want to live in New Haven if play at Foxwoods was my primary game. The few weeks that I've put in 30 hours or more up there have beaten the hell out of me. It's just too long of a drive to make, especially if you're going to make sure you're in the room when the games are good.

New Haven is a great city, though, and gets a bad rap it doesn't deserve.

I don't think moving to AC to be a pro is a good idea because AC would be a terrible place to live. I've spent a lot of time down there and I couldn't imagine living there (unless it was in the Borgata... /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Some place on the CT shoreline would be better since it's a shorter drive to Foxwoods (although the Foxwoods 20/40 isn't always great and there isn't much else to play is you don't want to sit 75/150 mixed games or play a lot of 5/5 NLHE). The shoreline is pretty expensive, though, so you'll have to be pretty far up 95 into the boonies to be able to afford something.

The games at the Taj from 20/40 up are probably better and offer a wider selection of limits as you move up. Absecon and Brigantine are much nicer than AC itself (which makes the set of New Jack City look inviting).

You'll make much more per hour playing online than playing live, though. And you won't have to live in AC.

scrub

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
An hour from Foxwoods. Tons of great restaurants. Lots of clubs. Some inexpensive housing opportunities. Despite what you may have heard, plenty of very nice neighborhoods.

Paul Darden and four Foxwoods pros that I personally know live in New Haven. PM me or respond here if you have questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right, New Haven's not bad if you dont mind high poverty levels, gang violence and tons of coke and heroin trafficing.

[Indiana]

Gotta say that I agree with what you are saying. Al is way to negative, probably because he didn't have what it took to be the best....I'll tell you that sitting here 9-5 everyday in front of my computer screen working for the man is very very unhealthy...I am always tired and bored as fukin hell....

Playing poker as a pro is a serious possibility and is worth the risk...

Just my 2 cents,
Indiana

[toots]

Poker's fun. Writing code is even more fun. If you don't think so, you should probably play poker, or do just about anything other than writing code.

I wish I could say that writing code is steadier work than playing poker, but I think those days are long past.

[Al Schoonmaker]

The internet and television have dramatically changed the economic picture. David Sklansky wrote an introduction to "Small Stakes HE." He pointed out that it is now possible to make 50K per year online at small stakes such as 3/6.
However, David and I live in Las Vegas, and we know that the overwhelming majority of working pros have little money, and some of them are deeply in debt. The debtors include people you have seen win huge prizes on TV.
Poker is a long term game, and career planning is an even longer one. Don't think only of the money you made in a good month. Look at where you are likely to end up. The long term prospects are better than they were just a few years ago when I wrote my book, but they are still pretty grim.
For example, I know of several pros who have been busted by medical costs because they have no insurance. I know of VERY few pros with anything resembling a retirement plan. It's great to make a lot of money playing poker when you're young. But do you want to end up like Johnny Moss? He was the greatest in the world, but he had to live on the Binion's charity. Are you better than Johnny? Or the other former greats who end up struggling to beat 4/8 to pay their rent?
Look at the LONG term.
Regards,
Al
Poker is a great second job.

[MicroBob]

Al's thoughts are intelligent and realistic as usual.

I've got a couple of questions and rather obvious observations here.

McBluffin - You say you've played online full-time for a year and then say you have 35k hands in your p-tracker.
I sure hope you have played more than 35k hands in a year....
I also hope you realize that winning results over 35k hands of 10/20 6-max is hardly the long-term.


Anyway, your details on your 1-year of online-poker success seem confusing to me. Have you been winning for the whole year but are only posting your win-rate for your last 35k hands? If that's the case that doesn't seem like an appropriate way to assess your win-rate if you ask me.

Some bankroll thoughts....I'm assuming these have all occured to you, but just in case they haven't I'm going to bring them up anyway. No offense intended:
You better have a monster bankroll to be thinking about playing 100/200.
300 BB's is obviously the recommended number. But I would probably still be uncomfortable even around 500BB.
It's not too unusual to lose 50BB on a few lousy beats in a single session. If your bankroll is large enough that you can take a $10k hit (or consecutive $10k hits) and just shrug it off as no big deal then I guess you really are ready for 100/200.

[ericd]

One other factor to consider.

Playing now for extra cash is fun. Try doing it 40 to 100 hours a week, 50 to 52 weeks a year for the next 30 to 40 years. When you have to do it to pay yours bills there is a good chance you will find it just as much a grind as most other jobs.

[RydenStoompala]

Just a thought.

Why not try it for a couple of weeks before moving? At least the reality of the table game win rate can set in. Going from online pro to a table player is like giving up practicing medicine to fly jets. They're different in a lot of ways. Maybe traveling the circuit for a month of two would be a good idea so that you dont wear a butt mark into a chair in AC and have half the pros practicing reading your hands with 90% accuracy.

Think of the other aspects of the earn rate as well. You're young, so a couple of years trying it as a pro wont knock you into a van down by the river for the rest of your life. There is the possible loss of building equity in a company, or a pension that is a huge loss because of the compounding effect between now and age 50 or whenever you want to spend life on a beach. It looks like forever from where you're standing, but it's not.

Anyone who spends eight hours a day pounding on a computer "for the man" should do something, but it's not a major incentive to spend just as much time folding and raising. If you're not doing something you love, what's the point of it all? The very least you should do if you hate your job is get another one.

Good luck.See you in AC.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe traveling the circuit for a month of two would be a good idea so that you dont wear a butt mark into a chair in AC and have half the pros practicing reading your hands with 90% accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most 20/40 and below AC "pros" think they read hands that well, but really just fold way too much to turn raises in big pots.

scrub

[lefty rosen]

Stick with online as your primary source of income your table selection is the key. Plus space cadet aggression doesn't nearly occur as much live as it does online. Also your expenses are way higher live. Online you can literally rent a dingy room in the middle of the country and make thousands of dollars a month (if you cared to), while live you have to live near an urban centre, most likely own a reliable car, pay for the over priced casino food that will slowly kill you and have to pay tips for everything.

[r2p]

I would add the Somers Point/Ocean City area a little further south and a little cheaper.

[r2p]

Based on the current populatity in Poker could it be that there is a short term pop in profits for the better player given the amount of weaker players who go for a few nites, lose, and never show up again. Won't this will change in a few months to a much more difficult way to earn a living ?

[r2p]

Why would you want to go B&M vs On-line ? The on-line rate of hands is about double the B&M. If you combine that with the ability to play more than one table at a time would indicate that your online win rate would be from 2 to 4 times higher than B&M (all things being equal).

[VeryTnA]

Don't listen to anyone. You already know it all.

[collegeplayer1]

to fall back on...He has the cash saved up.. So [censored] it... you only live once man... Maybe this will be a great experience, maybe not... Its not the destination but the journey that counts... But who the hell wants to go to NJ?

Go To VEGAS and date a stripper...

[Jonny G]

McBluffin,
Check out Ventnor, Margate, and Brigantine (the windiest place in the US... not Chicago)

I live just outside of Philly in Southern NJ but I have a townhouse by the bay in Ventnor. I try to make it down there as often as possible. Message me if you'd like more details on the area.

Take it easy,
Jonny

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]


Go To VEGAS and date a stripper...

[/ QUOTE ]

And get herpes.

[Richard K.]

M. Malmuth has posted that Johnny Moss sucked. What gives? Also, in Gambling for a Living DS and MM clearly indicate that poker is the surest form of gambling income. And, that the income can be substantial. Was that work a load?

[r2p]

That will use up the bankroll at a good clip.

[2planka]

Honestly, the OP is in for a bitter pill of reality.

No health insurance, no verifiable income (good luck getting a mortgage or a car loan or even a silly credit card), no steady paycheck (it's gonna hurt when Joe Tourist catches a one outer and takes your rent payment). No sick days, no paid vacations, no retirement plan, no paycheck (ever been mugged? ain't fun).

This sounds overly negative, but take a long view. Reread Al's first chapter: Why do you play poker?

Moreover, "Going pro in AC" is pretty darn far from a plan. It's as if you're thinking of AC as the land of milk and honey. If that's your idea, boy are you in for a surprise.

What bankroll do you think you'll need?
What do you think your expenses will be?
How much of a rainy day fund do you expect you'll need?
How much "float" does this allow you?
How responsible are you with money?
How cozy is it living with your folks, playing online, with no responsibilities? How would moving to an unknown city affect your lifestyle?
What are your goals/expectations? Are they realistic?

At the very least, why on earth would you choose AC over LA or Vegas?

Life ain't like the movies. I suggest you devise a clearly reasoned plan before taking off to "turn pro" on a whim.

The soap box is now vacant.

[STLantny]

IMO, if you are a winning player, then turning pro is 99% money management. I personally believe that, you should have 3 bankrolls when turning pro, maybe 4.
1. Bankroll 1- your playing bankroll over 300BB, at the least.

2. Life bankroll- enough money to live for a year, including food, gas, bill (ALL BILLS)- etc (leave this untouched for as long as possible, make all payments out of your hourly wage)

3. Retirement roll- Put a couple thousand into an ira every year, its not that much money, and you will have money to retire on

4. Other investments/fun money- put a hundred a week into this, try not to touch it for your first 6 months, use it if you see a good oppurtunity to make some real money, or just want a new 60in LCD.

The key is money management, and just because you had a 70BB night, doesnt mean you can go out an spend it. IE if you are making 2bb/hour and played 5 hours, you will end up losing 60BB back...sooner or later......