PDA

View Full Version : Another pullout from the Daliman post


citanul
09-18-2004, 11:32 AM
I've got a question about the following hand and followup commentary from Daliman.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t965)
Button (t1210)
SB (t945)
BB (t715)
UTG (t845)
UTG+1 (t2265)
MP1 (t920)
MP2 (t1160)
MP3 (t975)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A.
UTG raises to t60, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t60, Hero raises to t250, Button calls t250, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 calls t190.

Flop: (t855) 9, T, 8 (3 players)
MP3 bets t30, Hero raises to t715 (All-In), Button folds, MP3 calls t685.

Turn: (t2285) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2285) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2285

Results in white below:
MP3 has 8h Th (two pair, tens and eights).
Hero has Ac As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP3 wins t2285.

So I was actually IN position on the initail flop bettor and eventual winner, and RAISED allin another 685 into an 885 pot after MP3 made a weak bet out. Considering the preflop call, he is going to call with any 7 or J, and be getting proper odds to do so, and is also going to likely call any 8, 9, and DEFINITLEY T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I win at the SnGs. However, I don't do it while playing good NL. So, this question is clearly going to seem a little stupid (perhaps a lot stupid).

Re:

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the preflop call, he is going to call with any 7 or J, and be getting proper odds to do so

[/ QUOTE ]

Do people here (or at least some people) agree that if you have a draw that you are getting proper odds for, you should call it, even if it is an all in call? (IE, early in tournament, do you play strictly based on chip EV, instead of thinking "well, I'm on a draw, if I lose, I'm out, so I'll fold here and wait for a time when I think I'm ahead.") So, that covers the J or 7 in Daliman's statement.

Now, since I'm bad at NL (weak tight), I also was somewhat astounded by the following statement

[ QUOTE ]
and is also going to likely call any 8, 9, and DEFINITLEY T

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Does anyone call here with any 8 or 9? Like I said, I'm really weak tight, and given the opportunity to be left with a lot of chips, (alright, not a lot) this doesn't look like a great time to be getting in there with anything less than top pair, certainly. I may even muck a weak top pair hand here, if anyone wants to start taking shots at me. Then again, there's no chance I'd have a weak top pair hand here. Anyway, what do people think here, would anyone call with a 8 or 9?

Please do help a bit, I find that I give up too much in these things, and need to work on my NL game in general.

citanul

citanul
09-18-2004, 01:05 PM
A friend points out that perhaps a bit more of my confusion should be printed here.

Yes, I play weak tight, admitted already.

But, he says "well, put Daliman on a range of hands."

So, the range of hands that I could see him playing in this manner are probably AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, maybe 77, AK, AQ.

Does this mean that I should be playing more hands than those in the manner he did? (I possibly wouldn't have played the preflop the same way with the 99, 88, 77 hands, at least.)

citanul

Prickly Pete
09-18-2004, 02:50 PM
I took Daliman to mean that if someone would call that big of a raise preflop with a hand that includes a 9, they probably won't fold on the flop either.

citanul
09-18-2004, 05:08 PM
I guess this may be true. I guess we'd have to get a response from Daliman about that.

I too have made a lot of thse plays that are pretty clear (to me, after the fact) that the only way a sane player is calling you is if you are beat. Now, that isn't to say that I don't often push with AA in this situation, only to be called by both other players, one with 33 and one with AK, both of whom make exasperated claims of "I put you on overcards," and "I put you on a bluff."

I'm trying to work on my NL play, as I said, since I feel that too much of my results hang on survival til the last 5, then playing the short stack all in quite well. That said, I feel that normally, the only hand that a reasonable player would miniraise preflop and then call a raise with that contains an 8, 9, or T is probably 88, 99 or TT. This is a problem in this case.

That said, I'm still wondering the original question, which is, I guess, now, 2 part:

1) What hands would you have possibly if you were Daliman's opponents?
2) Would you, if you happened to have seen these flops with say, AT, A9, or A8, call the flop bet (or some other hand containing a T, 9, or 8, that doesn't contain a 7 or a J)?

citanul

citanul
09-19-2004, 02:37 AM
bump?

does everyone just agree with the other responder, and no one have a response to any of the other questions?

Daliman
09-19-2004, 03:56 PM
This is true. If he's calling 1/4 of his chips preflop to an in position raise here, he's calling any part of the flop.

gergery
09-19-2004, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the only way a sane player is calling you is if you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly true, but they could also have a number of hands you are even money with (JT,J9,J8,T7,97,87), or ahead of (AJ, AQ,JJ,77)
But yes, you are not in great shape if called.

[ QUOTE ]
normally, the only hand that a reasonable player would miniraise preflop and then call a raise with...is probably 88, 99 or TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are very few hands that sane players should be calling this size raise for. If fact, none come to mind. Playing TT-88 for set value is a big EV- play, for example and a number of other strong hands shuld reraise.

[ QUOTE ]

1) What hands would you have possibly if you were Daliman's opponents?
2) Would you, if you happened to have seen these flops with say, AT, A9, or A8, call the flop bet (or some other hand containing a T, 9, or 8, that doesn't contain a 7 or a J)?


[/ QUOTE ]

1. given that sane players would not be calling, you recognize he is insane, and thus can put him on pairs, suited connectors, medium-big aces, or 2paint cards. And virtually all of those hands will connect with T-9-8 flop in some way. Some of those connections mean AA has pot odds and should stay in the hand, others mean AA should leave.

2. Hard to say, since calling preflop would have required my wife to be at the computer while I got a beer. But once we're at the flop, I'm getting 2:1, put Daliman on an overpair, and just calculate if my particular cards are likely to beat the range of AA-QQ more than 33% of the time or so.

--Greg

M.B.E.
09-19-2004, 05:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do people here (or at least some people) agree that if you have a draw that you are getting proper odds for, you should call it, even if it is an all in call? (IE, early in tournament, do you play strictly based on chip EV, instead of thinking "well, I'm on a draw, if I lose, I'm out, so I'll fold here and wait for a time when I think I'm ahead.") So, that covers the J or 7 in Daliman's statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Early in SNGs don't give up significant CEV in fear of going broke. By "significant", I mean "more than a minuscule amount". However, when the flop is T-9-8 rainbow, you can't call with only a bare jack or seven if your pot odds are 2.2:1 (the true odds against hitting your straight are 2.17:1). The problem is that you might be drawing to only half the pot, and you need to consider this possibility when estimating your pot odds. (Also of course there's a chance you're drawing dead, especially if you're holding the seven rather than the jack.)

So with AJ you'd want pot odds of almost 3:1 to call an allin on that flop. With KJ you'd only need 2.5:1 or so (because you've still got eight outs to a straight, and now four of them are to the nuts). Of course sometimes you can adjust those figures downward based on the tendencies of your opponent and on the preflop action.

La Brujita
09-20-2004, 11:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Early in SNGs don't give up significant CEV in fear of going broke. By "significant", I mean "more than a minuscule amount". However, when the flop is T-9-8 rainbow, you can't call with only a bare jack or seven if your pot odds are 2.2:1 (the true odds against hitting your straight are 2.17:1). The problem is that you might be drawing to only half the pot, and you need to consider this possibility when estimating your pot odds. (Also of course there's a chance you're drawing dead, especially if you're holding the seven rather than the jack.)

So with AJ you'd want pot odds of almost 3:1 to call an allin on that flop. With KJ you'd only need 2.5:1 or so (because you've still got eight outs to a straight, and now four of them are to the nuts). Of course sometimes you can adjust those figures downward based on the tendencies of your opponent and on the preflop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree with the first part, re cev issue.

You could probably call doing a bit worse than 3:1 since A might be a good out no?

I am not sure KJ and AJ are as far apart as MBE suggests. Perhaps the much bigger difference is holding a bare J vs a bare 7.

That being said I am a bit hesitant to put numbers listing odds required in a vacuum.