Hawaiian Gardens 3/6

[bakku]

I made my first visit to Hawaiian Gardens tonight while staying with some friends in Irvine. My impression of the casino can be summed up in 3 words, "Poor man's Commerce."

Table is very loose and passive
Button is basically nuts preflop (he raises Axs in EP, any PP, etc.), then unpredictable postflop. Sometimes he raises his draws, sometimes he'll just call or check. He'll call down with a set one hand then go nuts with top pair weak kicker another. He plays about 75% of his hands and raises about 1/3 of the time he enters a pot.

3 limpers to me in the SB, I raise A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, BB folds, the rest call.

Flop is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I bet, 2 limpers fold, button raises, I 3-bet, he caps.

Turn is a blank, I check, he bets, I call.

River is a 4, I check intending to c/r.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

If your read on this guy was K6, then I really like the river checkraise attempt.

Did you contemplate on betting the turn since it's possible he was jamming just a flush draw or going crazy with top pair, which you said he was capable of doing?

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
If your read on this guy was K6, then I really like the river checkraise attempt.

Did you contemplate on betting the turn since it's possible he was jamming just a flush draw or going crazy with top pair, which you said he was capable of doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did, but I didn't think this guy was capable of capping the flop with a flush draw for a free card and even if he did he'd most likely bet the turn. I checked the turn because I was sure he'd bet it for me whether he had me beat or not and I didn't want to have to call down a raise. My play in this hand was based on my read of this guy.

[sfer]

Then why not checkraise the turn?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why not checkraise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's behind on the turn he doesn't want to get 3-bet. It's very unlikey that he'd get 3-bet on the river though if he checkraises, unless the dude has the nuts. Same amount of bets go in, though you do run the risk of him checking behind the river.

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked the turn because I was sure he'd bet it for me whether he had me beat or not and I didn't want to have to call down a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? You hold an overpair against a loose-aggressive player! Punish him--don't check and call. If he lucked into two pair, so be it. You still have outs and even if you don't hit this hand, you have to play aggressively when you have a monster holding against this style of player.

[pokerkai]

I like the line...but CR the river just feels like FPS.
Is a check call really all that bad??

[Chris Daddy Cool]

check raising the river is actually a pretty standard way to get in one extra bet when you're ahead and save one extra bet when you're behind because you'll almost certainly not get 3-bet by anything but a monster. if you feel your hand is worth 2BB at showdown checkraising is the way to go.

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
check raising the river is actually a pretty standard way to save one extra bet when you're behind because you'll almost certainly not get 3-bet by anything but a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]
how exactly does it save you a big bet when you're behind? he calls your raise and you spend 2 big bets, the same 2 big bets you spend when you bet, he raises, and you call.

also, your calculus doesn't take into account the times when you are ahead and the villain checks behind rather than betting.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

apprently this is why I'm such a lousy poster according to bison,

but... ok here it goes. if you are ahead, and you bet the river, he'll just call and you win just one bet.

if you're ahead and you checkraise, you'll collect two bets.

if you're behind and you checkraise, you are almost certainly not going to get 3-bet, unless he has a monser (which would feel and look funny, but you can probably fold safely to), thus saving you a bet, but this is only the case if you feel your hand has a 2bb showdown value. if you're content with just check/calling, that's fine too, but you'll often miss out on extra chances to push your edges. checkraising this river is not wrong and if it is it's not wrong by much.

ray zee posted a very interesting comment in the stud forum awhile back (you gotta search a little for it) about checkraising 7th street with just aces up against a guy who's shown great stregnth against the hero.

(though i'm not sure these two situations are related, but still an excellent read anyways)

[bisonbison]

I ask, again, how's denise?

[bakku]

Villain checks behind and shows KTo.

[sfer]

Bakku's description of the villain was, "Button is basically nuts preflop (he raises Axs in EP, any PP, etc.), then unpredictable postflop. Sometimes he raises his draws, sometimes he'll just call or check. He'll call down with a set one hand then go nuts with top pair weak kicker another." I'm willing to take my chances on a turn 3-bet and checkraise. Even if you get 3-bet on the turn, I think you'll be ahead often enough such that it's worth the risk.

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain checks behind and shows KTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

i.e. by playing weak-tight on the turn and river, you cost yourself big time.

[cnfuzzd]

It seems like the range of hands that villian could three bet the turn with is such that it couldnt be justified as a value bet. When you dont improve on the turn, you are wanting to get to showdown, not neccesarily as cheaply as possible, but with the most efficient use of your bets.

However, improving on the river makes it such that you now beat a wider segment of the range of hands that you could be facing, and from the description of the player, its more than likely he will bet the river, thus affording you the opportunity to checkraise.

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

Bite your tongue. Its not that you are a lousy poster. We are all just lousy readers. except for bison. Who someone needs to stake so that he can start playing 15-30 and stop taking his frustration out on all of us.

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

If i've said it once, ive said it a millon times. More people need to understand how *weak* *tight* bakku is.

seriously dude, if bakku is weak tight then i am a sex god.

either way, i win.

peace

john nickle

[Chris Daddy Cool]

meh, this hand was player dependent on his read. a checkraise on the river woulda worked most of the time.

[sfer]

CDC is suggesting folding to a 3-bet on the river. I hate any plan intending to fold AA to this clown. I prefer making him pay if he's drawing or just dicking around, which, from bakku's description, seems highly likely. I think your hand, unimproved, is ahead often enough against a joker to risk an extra bet on the turn.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

calling a 3-bet on the turn would seem almost mandatory against this dude, which sucks since you'll be drawing most of the time. calling a 3-bet on the river just sucks ass as you're usually losing.

but if you feel you'll be ahead on the turn anyways, then no problem checkraising the turn, but my take is bakku seriously thought he was up against K6.

[cnfuzzd]

I agree that folding to AA to an obvious joker isnt fun. But, if you feel you are behind, checkraising the turn makes little sense. However, the card that improves you on the river not only gives you a great chance at having the best hand, but also makes it very unlikely that you get three bet on the river, and, if you do, as CD said, its very nearly always by the nuts.

However, in retrospective, this does seem to be a "safe" (NOT weak tight) way to play, which i think is justified in this specific example by bakku's read. however, to take this as SOP is incorrect. And note that villian isnt neccesarily always a joker, as bakkus read seems to point to someone slightly knowledgable. For what its worth, i probably wouldnt have put the opponent on K6 simply because he seems to like to "slowpplay" his "big" hands.

Also, Sfer, would you fold to a turn 3-bet after you checkraised him?

peace

john nickle

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Sfer, would you fold to a turn 3-bet after you checkraised him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I go to showdown. I lose the same as CDC and bakku when I'm behind but I win more if he's on a draw. And I emphatically do not think I'm behind often.