UTG+1 KJs...Limp or Raise at Empire 3/6 Poll

[RED_RAIN]

Do you raise or limp with KJs at 3/6 with a regular table?

Anyone want to explain?

[busguy]

No Fold option ??


/images/graemlins/blush.gif busguy

[RED_RAIN]

You would fold this?!?!

[Alexthegreat]

I raise it some of the time, depending on what kind of table.....It's one of those hands that is very valuable because of it's suitedness, but not so good heads up.....So if I'm at a table that loves playing in raised pots, I'll raise it.....

I would only fold this hand if UTG raised, and UTG was a rock

[pokerkai]

A fold is not THAT farfetched RED.
At 5/10 its the norm.

I raise at a nice loose 3/6 table. Youll get worse hands to call all day long.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you raise or limp with KJs at 3/6 with a regular table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt this a little general?

[RED_RAIN]

Well if it's a regular table of 3/6 and I'm not sure if it matters a ton if UTG folds or not...if he folds I think raising looks a lot more tempting.

I've just been hearing more people raise it here and I usually limp.

I just thought it played better multi way.

I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

Did you see that I put UTG+1?

[pokerkai]

I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

5/10 is a rock garden.

[sublime]

At 5/10 its the norm.

For who?

[RED_RAIN]

Is it worth playing?

It's my next step as I'm getting ready to get out of 3/6.

I've heard 5/10 is no good at empire/party cause it's a rock garden.

Is it even beatable for 2+ BB/100?

Suggestion for something else?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
A fold is not THAT farfetched RED.
At 5/10 its the norm.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you're retarded.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

5/10 is a rock garden.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gladly play this hand at 5/10

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

5/10 is a rock garden.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gladly play this hand at 5/10

[/ QUOTE ]

As you should.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

5/10 is a rock garden.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't that push it towards a raise?

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting from pokerkai that it becomes a regular fold in that game in this spot.

5/10 is a rock garden.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't that push it towards a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

nottom is right. the 5/10 plays a bit tighter, but what you'll find is a very interesting phenomenom here. your EP raise with KJs will push out hands like KQ, AQ(sometimes), AJ from the tight players, and you will still get coldcalled by KT, QJ and such from the loose players.

also, at any table where a raise has a fair chance of taking down the blinds, open-limping is nearly criminal.

[RED_RAIN]

Does 5/10 play like 1/2 where it's unusally tight but the players who will be in have weird hands?

[evain]

I know it's getting a little off the track but someone asked if the 5/10 is beatable for 2BB/100 despite the rocks in attendance. Is this true?

[Trix]

Limp mostly raise if it´s tight.

[Noodles]

You wisecracker you! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Noodles]

this is interesting Pokerkai says to raise itat a nice loose table as worse hands will call you all day,that makes sense

Then you and nottom say to raise at a tight table as you might knock out better hands and have a chance of taking the blinds,makes sense

But isnt it usual to raise these type hands at tighter tables,well thats what i do,if you are called then you know you are up against something decent and helps your read.

although the point that pokerkai makes about worst hands calling your raise is good too,is there a flaw in his reasoning?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

KJs is a mixed hand for me. 3/6 party poker, I'll raise any day of the week.

Some of the tougher tighter upper games, I've folded KJs quite a few times UTG.

I almost never limp. That's just my style, I guess.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
Does 5/10 play like 1/2 where it's unusally tight but the players who will be in have weird hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

actually thats almost a perfect way to describe it that i had never thought of. yes its a fairly tight PF game (until the night) but they players play strange hands and still screw up after the flop.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's getting a little off the track but someone asked if the 5/10 is beatable for 2BB/100 despite the rocks in attendance. Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

well the rocks make it hard but i think a great player could do it. if you use some game selection and only play during certain times of the day, it plays just like the 3/6. so yes its doable.

[Ralph Wiggum]

depends

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know it's getting a little off the track but someone asked if the 5/10 is beatable for 2BB/100 despite the rocks in attendance. Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

well the rocks make it hard but i think a great player could do it. if you use some game selection and only play during certain times of the day, it plays just like the 3/6. so yes its doable.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this talk about rocks...and from hearing you talk you sound like one of em. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know it's getting a little off the track but someone asked if the 5/10 is beatable for 2BB/100 despite the rocks in attendance. Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

well the rocks make it hard but i think a great player could do it. if you use some game selection and only play during certain times of the day, it plays just like the 3/6. so yes its doable.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this talk about rocks...and from hearing you talk you sound like one of em. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol i am pretty bad...my 6max VPIP is the same as astro's full game VPIP... /images/graemlins/blush.gif... but i am around 15%(in a full game) which is a lot better than these 12%ers that populate the 5/10

[Trix]

OMG WOW your 6 max vpip is as high as astro´s full game. My 6 max is probably like your full game then :P

[RED_RAIN]

astro plays a very unique game...stats so different.

I think it shows that there can be more than one "type" of winning player and we all don't have to try to get narrowed down to 1 or 2 % of what people think is "optimal"

[ajrenni]

Raise - KJs is nothing to sneeze at. If the flop is rags, you've got overcards and probably at least a backdoor flush draw. If the flop has high cards, you are likely looking at top pair or a straight draw, if not also the flush possibility. Get some $ in the pot.

[thirddan]

I voted raise, and i do raise 100% of the time from UTG with this hand. But my goal for the last couple weeks has been to increase my preflop aggression...

[Guy McSucker]

I vote "yes": limp or raise.

Guy.

[sthief09]

ummm raise


and whoever said fold is not right and columbia is losing at football 17-0and i left

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A fold is not THAT farfetched RED.
At 5/10 its the norm.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you're retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was good. Made me laugh out loud. Thanks.

[dejableu]

Both options are acceptable. Just don't fold!

Ed Miller says that the hands you have to raise UTG are AA-TT, AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs, and KQs. He says to **consider** raising with 99, 88, ATs, KJs, AJ, and KQ.

So, to answer your question, consider raising (i.e. mix up whether you limp or raise).

[arabie]

both options are exceptable, however, one should be considerably more inclined to raise and, therefore, a raise should occur signaficantly more.

[RED_RAIN]

Posters keep referring to UTG when I specified UTG+1 /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[spamuell]

Posters keep referring to UTG when I specified UTG+1

Why did you specify UTG+1? Do you know what to do UTG, and UTG+2?

Either case, people's answers have been entirely inaccurate.
I really wish people would read the title and post first before just posting stuff to get their numbers up or who knows why.

Yes, like Trix, I am a post-numbering whore and am not even interested in your reply to this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BigEndian]

I raise. Regardless of table, raising usually presents the best post-flop scenario.

If it's a loose passive table, you can build a pot with a great multi-way hand (I raise often with JTs as well). If it's a tight passive table, you will pick up the pot very often with a bet on the flop or turn. If it's a tight aggresive table, you will quickly be 3-bet by superior hands, fold out better hands, and again be able to pick up the pot often when the flop misses the few that come with. On a loose aggressive table, you get the same advantage as a loose passive table, but in spades.

I'm not surprised that most answers are call. Most lurkers are not aggessive enough. Numbers I have for decent 3/6 and 5/10 players avg somewhere around 14% SF and 4% PFR. These are winning numbers over time and probably represent the least amount of risk to earn the money.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people who are not raising KJs (in a variety of positions) are probably also almost never raising ATo/s, KQo/s, KTs, K9s, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 99, 88, and 77. These hands are not raises in every scenario and from every position, but if you've never raised these hands (not being on a steal), you can stand to be more aggressive.

- Jim

[dejableu]

Unless it was a steal, I can say with a high degree of confidence that I have never raised K9s. But I agree with you on the rest...

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's a tight aggresive table, you will quickly be 3-bet by superior hands, fold out better hands, and again be able to pick up the pot often when the flop misses the few that come with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you talking about knocking out TAGs with a flop bet after they've three-bet preflop? If so, have you been smoking that peacepipe again? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
Posters keep referring to UTG when I specified UTG+1 /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a reason for this. Most people do not have a different method to playing every seat at the table. Instead, they know how they play in early position, middle position, late position, etc.

So when you ask what people would do when UTG folds and they are UTG+1, it's virtually the same as asking how they would play the hand UTG. You have added a small blip in favor of being more aggressive, but a fold from UTG is hardly an unexpected event... Now, had you asked what people do with KJs UTG+1 when UTG raises, well that would have been a different ballgame.

[BigEndian]

You mis-read me. It generally a check-fold the flop when 3-bet of course.

- Jim

[RED_RAIN]

I guess I think of KQo...UTG I usually fold, UTG+1 I raise.