Soccer vs. US Sports

[theBruiser500]

Soccer is my favorite sport to play, it's really cool.

My friend says that there is more strategy in baseball than in soccer. Also, he says there is more athleticism in football than soccer. I think he is completely wrong on both counts but admittedly have not played enough to say so definitively or prove it. Comments?

[theBruiser500]

bump, surprised this isn't a hot topic

[vulturesrow]

Thats because soccer blows.

That being said, I think rugby requires the most all around athleticism. Course Im biased because I played in college and in clubs after college. Personally I dont think soccer holds a candle to rugby or football or baseball

[The Dude]

I think there's more athleticism in soccer than football, but I think there's more strategy in football than either soccer or baseball, and it's not even close. The level of strategic planning that goes into a single football game is on a whole different level than either baseball or soccer.

As far as athleticism goes, collegiate wrestling is by far the most demanding sport played in school. I was varsity wrestling and soccer in high school, and the difference in what's demanded is staggering. I had teammates who were active in every other school sport (football, basketball, baseball, track, swimming, and hockey - off the top of my head), and no one every disagreed that wrestling is by far the most physically demanding sport.

[nothumb]

Errrrnk. Wrong wrong.

I think rugby is pretty damn tough and probably closest to soccer of any team sport in terms of endurance. But baseball and football are not anywhere near it.

I have played just about every team sport on the planet at one time or another fairly seriously. I was a pitcher and 3rd baseman in baseball (had a decent fastball, good control, and I hit people at strategically opportune times), a free safety for a brief period of time (meanest hijo de puta on the field even though I never really learned the defenses) and a goalie/midfielder in soccer. Soccer was the most physically demanding and it ain't close.

Also, there are more isolated strategic decisions in baseball, making it seem like a more 'strategic' game, but the importance of players maintaining a cooperative, subtle and highly effective strategy in soccer is paramount at the highest levels of the game. I would argue that, although you could probably say that it is easier to pinpoint the strategic moves (like a hit and run, or a poorly positioned infield) that win or lose games in baseball, each individual player, on average, needs to be more strategically aware and active in soccer. It's sort of apples and oranges.

Soccer is an awesome game and unfortunately a lot of people in this country don't really 'get it.' However we are making great strides in becoming halfway respectable in what is by far the most popular game on the planet - and our women's team is already top notch. I had the opportunity to watch Mia Hamm play at UNC during her college days and it was one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had.

The one thing I hate about soccer is the incessant flailing and crying for a foul call. I was watching a UEFA Champions League match and it really started getting to me, despite the fact that I was watching one of the greatest assemblies of soccer talent on Earth (Real Madrid was playing, though losing). I think referees should be more aggressive in giving yellow cards for poor sportsmanship and taking dives.

NT

[M2d]

H2O polo players would strongly disagree with your assertion that wrestling is the most demanding sport

[daryn]

this is pointless because nobody can look at it objectively. everyone is like, nononoono you guys are all wrong. XXXXX is the most physically demanding BY FAR!!! when i was back in XXXXXX i used to play XXXXX all the time and boy is it tough.

[vulturesrow]

NT,

Honestly I was just trying to stir the pot. Its very hard to compare sports in terms of athleticism. And Ill be first to admit I dont know enough about soccer to appreciate the nuances....however...

[ QUOTE ]
each individual player, on average, needs to be more strategically aware and active in soccer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this even more true in rugby. Then you add violent physical contact..what a great sport. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nothumb]

You obviously sat in your dorm room listening to Pearl Jam and didn't get off your ass long enough to play anything but stretch the salami.

Ole!

NT

[jstnrgrs]

I wouldn't dispute that soccer is physicaly demanding, though not so much as wrestling (I don't know about water polo, I have never played it.) I'm sure that there is also strategy involved (though nothing compares to football in this respect). My problem with soccer is that it is full of dumb rules.

[astroglide]

got any more gay "i like this because it's different" observations to post? note: i don't play chess or go, i don't enjoy baseball or soccer. i just hate it when people like you can't shut your goddamn mouths about whatever "better" alternative there is to the present topic of conversation at a party.

[Cyrus]

Football (aka Soccer) :

-Easiest game to learn and to play.
-Easiest to play outdoors, anywhere.
-Easy to reach adequate-playing level.
-Extremely tough on high levels, like all sports.
-For some, boring to watch; for others, exciting. (Baseball has the same dynamic: long bouts of seemingly not much going on, which is not true, and sudden bursts of exhilarating, heart-breaking action.)
-The excitement is derived from the considerable skill needed in soccer to control the ball, run with it, balance oneself, and check visually the whole field for the next move. All this, plus the pleasure from watching the game's large spaces being contested; those exploding, quick short runs; the passes of the ball to seemingly empty spaces, the creation of space, the man-to-man challenges, etc, are among the menu of soccer pleasures.
-The manager/coach lays down the tactics for a game, but during the game itself can do relatively little, as opposed to the players themselves, to affect its course.

Contrast the latter attribute with American Football which is, IMHO, the closest thing in sports, any kind of sports, to Chess : The players, just like the wooden pieces on the board, have little if any clue as to the overall strategy and tactics, which is the domain of the manager/coach almost exclusively. (The QB-manager intercom has blurred the lines, though.)

And the game is composed of a series of totally distinct plays ("moves"). Those "moves" are dictated by the calculation of a wide variety of factors (including crucially the opponent's history), coupled with the player's (the manager's) intuitive feel for the game.

Most comparisons to chess in sports are usually laughable demonstartions of ignorance, but American Football is the closest to the real thing yet, among physical sports. From the manager's perspective.

--Cyrus

[The once and future king]

It allways makes me chuckle when people say football (Soccer, I am english so will be refering to this sort by its true name) isnt physicaly demanding.

Anyone who wnats to get an idea of how demanding football is just spend an hour and half running sprints of about 15-30m as fast as you can. Football is relentless sprinting into space or to cover space or to track players for 90 minutes with only a 15 minute break at half time.

I think if someone plays/watches enough of any given sport I think one will come to appreciate it. SPORT=GOOD.

However were I think football achieves an superioty over American sports is in its organisation.

As a spectator no supporter of American sport can know what it feels like to see the score line England 5 Germany 1.

Perhaps the closest you get to this is BasketBall at the olympics or the Ryder cup, but footballs true greatness iis it world wide popularity and its international competitions at both club and national level.

The most tactical game is Cricket. Its funny but if Americans took the time I think this is the sport is the one thay might love the most.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]

The most tactical game is Cricket. Its funny but if Americans took the time I think this is the sport is the one thay might love the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a yank and took the time to learn the game while living in the UK. The problem i had with cricket is that i lost interest after 6 hours. C'mon... breaks for tea and sandwiches... WTF is up with that? Test matches lasting 5 days....thats just plan silly.

[vulturesrow]

Personally I think rugby is a sport that Americans should really enjoy. It has actually caught on huge at the amateur/club level, but as anyone who follows rugby knows, the USA Eagles have a long ways to go in terms of parity with the other test teams.

Chris

[gonores]

Get some new material.

[cockandbull]

While i know nothing about mostly american sports, such as baseball and football. I would point out that soccer has a different type of athleticism to football. football strikes me as being a game built on short busts of speed and strength, while soccer is based on endurance, speed and relative strength.

[GWB]

After the "Lambert Field" comment, John has given up on football fans, now he's going for the soccer fans:


http://www.geocities.com/btikhon/Kerry_dork_2004.jpg

[Usul]

[ QUOTE ]
The players, just like the wooden pieces on the board, have little if any clue as to the overall strategy and tactics, which is the domain of the manager/coach almost exclusively. (The QB-manager intercom has blurred the lines, though.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever played football? Have you ever known anyone who has? Do you have any clue how many hours of film elite football players watch in any given DAY? To say they are chess pieces and don't know strategy is just plain ignorant. Yes, the coach makes the game plan, but the players understand it to the letter.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are more isolated strategic decisions in baseball, making it seem like a more 'strategic' game, but the importance of players maintaining a cooperative, subtle and highly effective strategy in soccer is paramount at the highest levels of the game. I would argue that, although you could probably say that it is easier to pinpoint the strategic moves (like a hit and run, or a poorly positioned infield) that win or lose games in baseball, each individual player, on average, needs to be more strategically aware and active in soccer. It's sort of apples and oranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the way it seems to me. There are more easily seen tactical choices in baseball, but these are really superficial. Strategy is used on a much deeper important level in soccer.

[ QUOTE ]

The one thing I hate about soccer is the incessant flailing and crying for a foul call. I was watching a UEFA Champions League match and it really started getting to me, despite the fact that I was watching one of the greatest assemblies of soccer talent on Earth (Real Madrid was playing, though losing). I think referees should be more aggressive in giving yellow cards for poor sportsmanship and taking dives.

[/ QUOTE ]

This amuses me personally.

[theBruiser500]

Astroglide shut up, you're a moron.

[Cyrus]

I'm sorry if I was (unintentionally) insulting to you or anyone else who "has ever played football". I did not mean to imply that footballers are stupid jocks who behave like wooden pieces on the field. I do accept that they all "understand the game plan to the letter".

The point is that the amount of freedom allowed to the football player in any given play is extremely less than the respective amount of freedom accorded to a soccer player. (In soccer, notably, set plays are the exception rather than the obligatory standard.) This is one of the attributes that make American Football ressemble chess more than any other physical sport.

[Usul]

I understand your intention, and no offense is taken. The point is that yes, each football player has a job in a given situation. What that means is that every player on the field must know all the different permutations of each play's development and where he needs to be. In that sense football players need to be more intelligent and disciplined than any other athelete in any sport I'm aware of.

[astroglide]

i'll put you in your place any time you make "insightful" or "interesting" "observations" like this

[theBruiser500]

astroglide, i'm not posting this to be insightful or whatever, if you refer back to my original post this is really a question. me and my friend argued over this and i wanted some input from people who know more about this than me.

[astroglide]

the same time you started making go/chess comparison posts...

[Bob Moss]

If thebruiser starts asking questions about 7 card stud, are you going to have a problem with that, too?

Bob

[MMMMMM]

"H2O polo players would strongly disagree with your assertion that wrestling is the most demanding sport"

Can't be, though.

I wrestled, did judo, and swam and played recreational water polo.

There is a REASON wrestling matches are over measured in the single minutes. It's along the same lines that you can only sprint in track and field so far or so long. Water polo is indeed demanding, but you can do it competitively for many minutes. You CAN'T really wrestle competitively for 30 minutes, even with brief time-outs for referee whistles in both sports.

Also, wrestling is far more physically draining than sport judo.

[vulturesrow]

I would argue your track analogy is not the greatest. World class marathoners run their mile splits at close to a dead sprint.

[sfer]

Soccer has like 3 rules aside from the obvious no hands/goalies thing. Offsides, continuation, and direct/indirect.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
As a spectator no supporter of American sport can know what it feels like to see the score line England 5 Germany 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

USA 4, USSR 3

Gives me chills just to look at it. And I was a fetus when it happened.

I agree with your main point though. Americans in general don't have the passion for international team sports competitions that Europeans do.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Soccer has like 3 rules aside from the obvious no hands/goalies thing. Offsides, continuation, and direct/indirect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. And amazingly there's at least one rule too many on that list. I maintain that eliminating that silly offsides rule would instantly increase the games popularity.

[The Dude]

Whether his analogy is the greatest or not, what he says is still true. I challenge you to find me ANYBODY who has wrestled at any real competitive level tell me they've done another sport more physically demanding.

I've never met one, and I know a lot of wrestlers.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that eliminating that silly offsides rule would instantly increase the games popularity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Increase the popularity for Americans who want to watch lazy-asses cherry-pick all day the same way they want to watch basketball players do jump-stops and 360 dunks instead of play defense? I don't know, maybe people from other countries would enjoy this too, but soccer is wildly popular in most countries on Earth. And it's gaining ground here.

Eliminating the offsides rule in soccer would be one of the worst rule changes I can imagine.

NT

[M2d]

Depending on what you define a sport as, I can think of several that are much more physically demanding than wrestling.
Triathalon, Big wave surfing (not that rinky-dink malibu hop crap, but the Todos Santos/Mavericks/Cloudbreak variety), Free diving all immediately come to mind.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Water polo is indeed demanding, but you can do it competitively for many minutes

[/ QUOTE ]

as a former competitive water polo player i assure you that you cant do it properly for more than 5-6 minutes

try swimming the length of a 50m pool with your hands in the air - that was the regular warm up before training in earnest

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

australian rules football is more physically demanding than any other team sport

you require enormous upper body strength - professional players have that wobbling bicep thing going on - you also require huge stamina - the average player runs about 10-12 miles, most of which is short sprinting in the course of a game that lasts 100 minutes

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[jstnrgrs]

Some middle ground in defensive penalties would be nice. It's either nothing, or a penalty kick.

Yellow cards are nothing, but red cards are to harsh.

The referee's decision (which is often wrong) can result in an automatic suspension. (Suspensions should only be handed out after a carefull review of the video tape.)

Then there is that matter of deciding chapionships on penalty kicks. (If it were up to me, they would play for four, five, twenty hours. Whatever it takes to determine a winner. After all, we're only talking about the world cup championship here.)

There are several other rules that I do not care for, but I must give soccer credit where it is due. Their relagation system is awsome.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on what you define a sport as, I can think of several that are much more physically demanding than wrestling.
Triathalon, Big wave surfing (not that rinky-dink malibu hop crap, but the Todos Santos/Mavericks/Cloudbreak variety), Free diving all immediately come to mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's fair to include those you mention as potentials for being the most physically demanding sport. You're wrong on all accounts, though. Ask anybody who has done both any of those you mention AND wrestled competitively, and they will tell you the same.

I suppose one could make an argument for triathalon. The difference, though, is that in triathalon you bleed away your energy slowly over several hours. In wrestling you are balls-out 100% the entire time. You could tell somebody to play racquetball for 30 hrs straight and then say that's more demanding than 6 mins of wrestling. Not to take away from traithletes, but simply adding volume doesn't make something the most physically demanding.

[Martin Aigner]

As far as I know paddling is the physically most demanding sport.

Martin Aigner

[daveymck]

Every physical sport has different demands and players who are at the top of their sport will be at the peak of fitness generally with a body fit for their sport and role within it. Whether a marathon runner, Cyclist on the Tour De France, in the NFL, boxer, footballer whatever all have different physical requirements and is really hard to say which is most demanding. Although if I had to vote I would suggest boxing.

The only exception I can think of that this is not the case for active sports is golf where fitness is not as important.

As for US Football vs Football they are completly different games, US Footbal is more similar to Rugby League (except no forward passing). Rugby League though is more fluent (have five takles) and players can probaly express themselves more than in US football which is a lot more strategy based and the Head Coach calling the plays is probably the most key job and has the biggest influence on the game.

Baseball I havent watched so cant comment on except that in the UK its a girls game called rounders, not sure which came first.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
Some middle ground in defensive penalties would be nice. It's either nothing, or a penalty kick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite true. There is a also the possibility for a indirect free kick in the penalty area, but it happens rarely.


[ QUOTE ]
The referee's decision (which is often wrong) can result in an automatic suspension. (Suspensions should only be handed out after a carefull review of the video tape.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%


[ QUOTE ]
Then there is that matter of deciding chapionships on penalty kicks. (If it were up to me, they would play for four, five, twenty hours. Whatever it takes to determine a winner. After all, we're only talking about the world cup championship here.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, and probably all the english posters will agree with you wholeheartly /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Anyway, don´t forget that in the world championchip you have eight-, quarter-, semifinals and a final. And all this after preliminary plays in groups of 4 teams. If two teams would play for several hours the winner would have a huge disadvantage in the next round. But a decision in the final by penalty kicks really should be avoided.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[sfer]

Oh, no. This is the first post I've read where you're clearly wrong Clark. Nothing would ruin soccer faster than getting rid of offsides. In a lot of ways, the quick, darting runs through defenders in anticipation of a through-ball are the best plays in soccer.

[sfer]

The best thing about Aussie football is when they let kids overrun the field after the game.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, no. This is the first post I've read where you're clearly wrong Clark. Nothing would ruin soccer faster than getting rid of offsides. In a lot of ways, the quick, darting runs through defenders in anticipation of a through-ball are the best plays in soccer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting rid of the offside rule would be madness on the scale of getting rid of the LBW rule in cricket, not only would it change the whole playing of the game it would mean no complicated rules for woman to not understand possibly making them more interested in the game. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[James Boston]

Watching a bad halftime show at a football game is still better than watching soccer.

[theBruiser500]

It sounds like while people think there are more phsically demanding games than soccer (which I did not contest), but football and baseball are not among them.

[The once and future king]

You forgot an important bit in your post.

That was the bit when you said: "In my opinion".

[elwoodblues]

Did you actually think he was stating a fact and not an opinion?

[The once and future king]

You forgot an important bit out of your post.

That was the bit were you said: "Hi im elwoodblues and before I post I would like to point out that I live in Pedanticksvile Arizona"

[elwoodblues]

I'll make sure to add that to my signature line.

[MMMMMM]

Longer duration is a different thing than how demanding an athletic activity is while it is being done.

You can pace yourself somewhat in the triathlon, etc. You CAN'T pace yourself in wrestling or you will lose to an equal competitor. As Dude said, it's basically balls-to-the-wall the whole way. Wrestling also uses the entire body so oxygen debt occurs very quickly, as does lactic acid buildup. It also requires continual explosive bursts of strength and speed which are much more demanding than a fast but paced effort.

Obviously you have never wrestled.

Also, why do you suppose boxing goes 12 rounds whereas wrestling goes only 3 rounds?

Finally, when you are doing all the above exertions and in severe oxygen debt and muscle fatigue, your ribcage is often being compressed by your opponent's weight which makes it all that much harder to breathe. No comparison in terms of utter physical exertion.

edited: It just occurred to me that you seem to be trying to compare more overall aspects of athleticism since you included Diving. I thought this minor argument was about which sport is the most "physically demanding" not which requires the most "overall athleticism, including coordination" (which could include, heck, even golf). I believe wrestling is the sport most purely physically demanding.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you have never wrestled.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously you've never surfed big waves. just the paddle out would kick a lot of people's butts. In wrestling, if you don't go balls out all the time (what, a couple minutes?) you lose. when you surf bigger waves (8 ft. or more hawaiian, triple overhead for the cali/east coast people), if you don't go balls out the whole time, you die.

and, yes, I know people who have done both (at the same time).

[M2d]

How deep can you dive without supplied air?

[M2d]

John Kruk is sitting at his locker after a game drinking a beer. he has a huge chaw in and is smoking a cig. with his uniform partially stripped, his gut is very evident (it would have been evident if he were wearing a parka, anyway).
a woman reporter came up to him and asked him if, as an athelete, he was setting a good example for the kids and other fans.
Kruk spit into a cup, took a drag off of his cig, guzzed some beer and said

"lady, I'm not an athlete. I'm a baseball player".

[MMMMMM]

You can paddle out at your own pace. As for surfing big waves, when you are surfing the wave, are you so out-of-breath you can hardly breathe?

Maybe surfing big waves requires more coordination than wrestling. That might make it more athletically demanding in some ways, but not more purely physically demanding (which is what I thought we were arguing about).

[Clarkmeister]

My vote is that pro boxers are the best conditioned athletes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I have to agree with wrestling. I remember my first match my sophmore year of high school. It was a JV match, but it was the first one I did outside of practice. I believe it went 1.5 rounds, and I won, but I have never been more exhausted in my entire life as I was after that match, and that was only 3 minutes! I literally couldn't take a drink of water for 15 minutes because I was breathing so hard. I think one of the few sports that is just as physically demanding as wrestling is boxing. And thats the end of the story, nothing else compares. Marathon running is tough, but it doesn't require the the same amount of strength, endurance, and agility that wrestling and boxing demand.

FWIW, I do recall that ESPN.com said boxing was the hardest sport to play and they compared something like 100 sports.

[Clarkmeister]

Get rid of offsides and there wouldn't be so many freaking ties. All that rule does is help the less athletic, less skilled teams.

[M2d]

This aint elvis on a tanker surfing two foot slop in front of the Royal Hawaiian Hotel.
No, you can hardly breath when you are surfing. No, you can't "paddle out at your own pace". You'd get crushed. it's not like there's a certain area where the wave is, and an expressway out to the lineup that is completely calm. if you surf in on it, you generally have to paddle out through it.
and, we are arguing physically demanding. I stand by what I've said. I know people who've done both, and they stand by what I said.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Get rid of offsides and there wouldn't be so many freaking ties. All that rule does is help the less athletic, less skilled teams.

[/ QUOTE ] LOL.... soccer is so boring to watch.... which is to bad because it is a lot of fun to play.

[MMMMMM]

"How deep can you dive without supplied air?"

I never measured it as for diving, but I used to swim the length of the high school pool underwater, and that is not nearly as draining as a real wrestling match for 3x 3-minute rounds. Heck even compared to 3x 2-minute rounds.

[MMMMMM]

"My vote is that pro boxers are the best conditioned athletes."

Well, yes, probably; but if Pro Wrestling was real wrestling instead of athletic showmanship, then I'd bet it would be wrestlers.

To compare apples to apples, I'd bet that Olympic wrestlers are at least as well-conditioned as Olympic boxers.

[ThaSaltCracka]

This either ends the debate or fuels it.

ESPN.com, sports skills page (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills)

Boxing 1
Ice Hockey 2
Football 3
Basketball 4
Wrestling 5
Martial Arts 6
Tennis 7
Gymnastics 8
Baseball/Softball 9
Soccer 10
Skiing: Alpine 11
Water Polo 11
Rugby 13
Lacrosse 14
Rodeo: Steer Wrestling 15


Surfing was 23rd.

[M2d]

and not even close to free diving. I know some guys who will dive to 100 feet, look around, spear a couple of fish (two shafts on their spear guns), surface, and then repeat to collect the fish they spear. each dive takes three to four minutes, and they're doing physical activity in the process.
the deepest I've ever gotten was about thirty five or forty feet and that kicked my butt.

[MMMMMM]

So maybe football is more skillful than wrestling, as the rankings show...but it sure isn't more physically demanding (draining).

[M2d]

big wave surfing is a different animal entirely. I hardly think this is what the compilers had in mind.
http://www.quiksilver.com/content/images/632-mainImage-blowupFilename.jpg

[ThaSaltCracka]

well endurance seems to answer that, I think wrestling is underated in the power category, because their main example of power is Barry Bonds, so that would make me think it is burst of power, which is definitely applicable to boxing and wrestling. So I also think endurance is underated in wrestling as well. But I think they both(wrestling and boxing) show up right about where they should on the rankings. Surfing does as well /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[The once and future king]

"You can paddle out at your own pace"

You have obvioulsy never surfed before. When there is an 8 foot+ wave bowling up in front of you about to break, there is only 1 speed at which you paddle. The adrenlin rush of primal fear you get in this situation means that however knakered you feel/are you paddle at full speed and acceleration to make it over said wave before you catch it on the head.

This is why surfing is such excellent exercise. You will do it till you drop and the conditions dictate that you give it your all for the whole session or end up havin to eat a BIG [censored] sandwich.

Its amazing how fast you paddle 2 hours into a grueling session after you have just been bounced on the reef and you are in the impact zone. One does not think, hmmm bit tired time for a slow leisurly paddle out.

If you paddled out at your own pace you wouldnt make it outback at all. Not unless there in a nice safe channel.

[MMMMMM]

I would guess some people big-wave surf all day long. You CAN 'T really wrestle all day long--or anything even close to it. Guess that settles that.

[ThaSaltCracka]

When they said boxing was the hardest, do they say Heavy-weight or feather-weight? No, they say boxing because its simply not possible to judge every level of a certain sport. They gave a generalized overview of the different attributes needed in each sport. There is a massive difference college football and the NFL. AAA baseball is far different than MLB baseball. Need any more examples?

[M2d]

thank you, I thought I was alone here. I'd say double that for the ones (idiots?) who body surf pipe like Mark Cunningham, Jack Lindholm, Mike Stewart and the rest. I've seen Mike trying to get out on a third reef pipe day and couldn't because the lifeguards wouldn't let him.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am simply amazed that you honestly think surfing is as hard as wrestling or boxing? Or even as hard as football? I read someone on here say baseball players aren't "really" athletes, but damn, Ryan Klesko freakin surfs! So now what? My friend who is far from being athletic, surfs with ease. If your whole argument is, well I mean surfing on big waves is really really hard, than thats absurd. This would be like saying hitting a 90 MPH fastball is easy, but an 100 MPH fast ball is really hard.

[MMMMMM]

Thank you for the information and correction, Once and Future, but this just helps illustrate my point.

A surfing session can last hours. A wrestling match can only last minutes because you will simply be too knackered to continue any longer--even if you are a world-class athlete. So wrestling is far more physically demanding than surfing.

It's sort of like the difference between running at a very good clip or running at a FULL sprint. If you are a world-class athlete you can run at a very good clip or even a near-sprint for quite a long time--but you can only run at a FULL sprint for a very short time. Wrestling is very much like the FULL sprint.

[M2d]

just because you don't understand the game, you don't have to come here and prove it.
In all the examples you cite, the levels of competition are different, but the playing fields and rules are the same. surfing on tour in malibu, france, etc is a nice showcase of talent. surfing the big wave events is a totally different playing field and totally different rules. also, you see very little crossover in the contestents because the skill sets are different.

as an example (this came in a free surf) Titus Kinimaka was surfing Waimea on day in 1989 when he broke his femur after wiping out. At Waimea, there's only one small section in the right corner where you can enter or exit. the rest of the beach has such hellacious shorebreak, that you just can't punch through. also, if miss your chance to get out, you have to let the current circle you around the bay while avoiding being sucked into the impact zone. it takes about twenty minutes or more to make a full pass of the bay. Titus did this with a broken leg and still couldn't make it out. he eventually had to be airlifted out.
I think you severely underestimate the power and conditioning of big wave surfers.

[M2d]

how many matches can you wrestle in a day? how many rounds? as King Arthur said, if you don't go at a full sprint while surfing, you are fubar-ed. period. your comparison between a full session and a sigle match isn't even comparing the same things.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you severely underestimate the power and conditioning of big wave surfers.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you have no idea how hard wrestling is. I confess that I have never partaking is surfing or BIG WAVE SURFING~OOOOOOOOOHHHH, so I have no idea how physically demanding it is, but you cannot possibly tell me its harder than swimming, which is close to being as hard as wrestling IMO. After all, surfing is paddling with your arms, and then standing on a board.

[The once and future king]

I imagine wrestling is more knackering than surfing due to the fact that you are exerting strength to counter strength from your opponent.

I was just pulling you up on that at your own pace thingy.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
how many matches can you wrestle in a day? how many rounds?

[/ QUOTE ] Each match is three rounds, then there is overtime if neccesary. Varsity meets, they only wrestle one match, but at tournaments, you can wrestle up to 5 or 6 matches in a day. During the day, the wrestlers are constantly eating carbs and drinking water. Most wrestlers pass out from exhaustion on the way home from tournaments. I would compare a wrestling tournament to a swimming tournament.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine wrestling is more knackering than surfing due to the fact that you are exerting strength to counter strength from your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ] You hit the nail on the head. But not only are you trying to counter your opponents strength, you are trying to overtake his strength.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
After all, surfing is paddling with your arms, and then standing on a board.

[/ QUOTE ]
gee, you must be right. I'm wrong. especially with your wealth of knowledge of the subject.

I'm not saying that wrestling is easy. just that it's not as demanding as big wave surfing. I tried it a little in high school. not a lot, and not on a competitive level, but enough to realize that it kicked my butt and was way tougher than baseball.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
just that it's not as demanding as big wave surfing.

[/ QUOTE ] I have no idea what you mean here? Are you saying the margin of error is much smaller in surfing because one mistake and your leg is broken(or any other injury)? If so, I agree, but its certainly not as physically demanding as wrestling.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried it a little in high school. not a lot, and not on a competitive level, but enough to realize that it kicked my butt

[/ QUOTE ] Practice can't even compare to a match, if you had been in a match, you would know.

[ QUOTE ]
and was way tougher than baseball.

[/ QUOTE ] on some levels. Baseball is incredibly hard in some regards.

[The once and future king]

When you swim do you have 50 second hold downs after you wipe out. Make it to the surface, [censored] im in the impact zone BOOOM you caught one gulp of air, now you are pinned to the sand/sharp reef for what will seem like an eternity. Make it the surface agian. Bit of a lull but wont last long. Pull board towards me, dosnt matter that I have no breath, that my arms feel like paper mache must paddle at maximum speed (moving my body wieght through water without the aid of my legs) to get out of impact zone. Looks up feck, might not make it, primal feer grips body, didnt think I could go faster but can somehow theres something more in the tank. Feck Not gonna make it, but I can duck dive this next wave if I time it exactly right. Thats not going to be easy as my arms have just no juice left and I have to push my whole board about 4 feet under the water. (Surf boards float)Here it comes, get down you fecker. Yes made it.

Rinse repeat for 2 hours max. 3 hours if you are under 25.

For spice add in a walk up a high steep cliff path with all your kit afterwards.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what you mean here? Are you saying the margin of error is much smaller in surfing because one mistake and your leg is broken(or any other injury)? If so, I agree, but its certainly not as physically demanding as wrestling.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I lost my point when I got into the cool story. what I meant was that they were in conditions that were so physically demanding that rescue crews couldn't get him out.

[ QUOTE ]
Practice can't even compare to a match, if you had been in a match, you would know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not trying to compare it to a match. However, I did get some inkling to how tough it could be.

[ QUOTE ]
on some levels. Baseball is incredibly hard in some regards.

[/ QUOTE ]

On all levels of "physically demanding". the roughest I ever had it was pitching 11 innings (summer league during college, so no innings limit), in hawaii in 95 degree heat, 95% humidity. The roughest I've ever seen was my catcher for that game. tough, but not even on the scale of toughest in all sports.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
When you swim do you have 50 second hold downs after you wipe out.

[/ QUOTE ] No, you just have to swim as hard as you can for 3 minutes or so straight. I suppose thats easy though.
You don't have that in wrestling either, but you do have 2 minutes of grappling, throwing, and overall wrestiling to do, with the occasional 5 second pause. Then its back to the grind. Now, some dude is on top of you trying to flip you over, now you have to break his half nelson, somehow get one of your legs free and either flip him or somehow stand up and break his grip, all of this with a 180-200 lb guy on you, and you may have to do this for 2 minutes or longer. I guess try surfing with a 150 lb backpack on and then tell me how hard it is.

[The once and future king]

No beef with wrestling as I have all ready made clear.

If you tried to surf and the surf was no more than waiste to shoulder high, you wouldnt make it out back.

Go surf come back with something like an informed opinion and well have this good ol swimming v surfing debate again.

Also, how many swimmers die/recieve serious injury in the pool each year?

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess try surfing with a 150 lb backpack on and then tell me how hard it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
or you could try sprinting to the point of exhaustion then jumping in the water and letting a few tons of water crash down on your head.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Go surf come back with something like an informed opinion and well have this good ol swimming v surfing debate again.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I'll plan my next vacation around this thread. My life doesn't revolve around convincing someone how absurd their arguments are, even though I have tried /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[The once and future king]

It helps not to be the one making the absurd arguement.

One is also more likely to make absurd arguements when one has no experience of the subject at hand.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
or you could try sprinting to the point of exhaustion

[/ QUOTE ] Now your equating sprinting to paddling a surf board? C'mon, you can't be serious.

[The once and future king]

Are you being dimm on purpose.

He said sprint to the "Point of exaustion". When surfing one is perpetualy exausted. One is also having tons of water being dumped on your head.

He was trying to point out a way for you to sample some of the surfing experience without having to plan your whole vacation arounbd it.

[M2d]

the harder you argue with no experience in this, the more absurd you appear.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Me? Excuse me, but the mere assertion that surfing is as hard as wrestling from a physical standpoint is completely absurd. I have never surfed before, I can admit that, but I have played several sports which are nowhere near as hard as wrestling, and I also listed the espn.com article showing sports skills. No offense, but I'll take ESPN's opinion on it as opposed to someone who is clearly biased and basing everything off (I assume) his personal experience. Said personal experience, bias, and preferences are obviously skewing his judgement.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
He said sprint to the "Point of exaustion".

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah I can read you [censored] moron. When you sprint to the point of exhaustion your whole body is tired. Exhaustion does not mean simply out of breath, it means your exhausted(ie whole body). So, I am asking him if he is equating sprinting to the point of exhaustion to paddling(even extremely hard)? I find that to be simply astounding. Would you equate swimming 100M of freestlye to paddling a surf board?

[daryn]

surfers are idiots end of story /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif


i think some common sense can be used here. have i ever golfed in my life? NO. however i'm pretty sure a sport like soccer or whatever is more physically demanding than golf.

but how do i know??? i have never golfed before, oh my!!! i must be the most ignorant person in the world!

either that or i have an ounce or more of common sense.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
the harder you argue with no experience in this, the more absurd you appear.

[/ QUOTE ] Okay, I'll just take your word for it then. From now on, I will just accept everything I hear as fact. Please enlighten me on the physical rigors of surfing, other than its just like sprinting, except you don't run.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Daryn,
Tisk, tisk, tisk, don't you know, surfing is the hardest sport in the world. Its like running except you don't run, its like swimming, except you don't swim, its like wrestling, except you don't wrestle.....

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
Me? Excuse me, but the mere assertion that surfing is as hard as wrestling from a physical standpoint is completely absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arghhhhhhhhhhhh

Read my feckin posts you dimwit. I have all ready said that I am not arguing about wrestling TWICE.

I am only debating your absurd swimming claim.

Can we stay on message please?

[daryn]

yeah so far all i can tell is that when you surf you might die or get put in life threatening situations. big deal! same goes for skydiving, but all you need to be is dead weight to do that.

[The once and future king]

Swim 100m just using your arms.

This is so funny. I used to swim competitievly. Everyone around here does growing up.

I would be much much much more tired after paddling a board 100m through surf than I would be had I swam out.

You just have to accept this as true. Insults aside, you obvioulsy cant comprehend how tiring paddling a surfboard with all your body wieght being moved around by your arms through surf actauly is.

Instead of trying to "geuss" how tiring this might be and getting it all totaly wrong. Why not take the word of someone who surfs and swims.

[ThaSaltCracka]

oh, excuse, I didn't realize you were now talking about swimming and surfing.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Swim 100m just using your arms.


[/ QUOTE ] Again, this is a guess. I am going to bet swimming with just your arms is harder than paddling with a board, as long as you are swimming hard.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of trying to "geuss" how tiring this might be and getting it all totaly wrong. Why not take the word of someone who surfs and swims.

[/ QUOTE ] Paddling aside, which I never argued was easy, what else about surfing can possibly be as hard as swimming? Just out of curiousity?

[ThaSaltCracka]

what the hell was the thread about first of all anyways? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, excuse, I didn't realize you were now talking about swimming and surfing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have done had you read my two post earlier on in this thread in which I point out quite clearly that I agree wrestling is harder than surfing. Fer fecks sake.

Look its quite simple.

Paddling a board 100m through surf is much more tiring than swimming 100m through surf.

You seem to have a very solid pre concieved impression about paddling a surfboard. After only about 20m your arms begin to ache as though they are gona fall off for ever. Arms arnt made to trasnport the human body around. After 2 hours of this + plus duck diving and hold down so you are making maximum physical effort without proper oxygen levels you are just broken physicaly. There is nothing at all left.

Trust me if you wnet surfing after 30 mins you would be totaly spent. I mean going home and not being able to move for the rest of the day spent.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Get rid of offsides and there wouldn't be so many freaking ties. All that rule does is help the less athletic, less skilled teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree, Clark. Even unathletic, unskilled soccer players can stand around by the goal while their teammates kick the ball towards them upfield.

And I disagree that it would get rid of ties. The correct counter-strategy would be to keep your defenders packed in toward the goal, not committing them to the attack. Soccer would be reduced to two teams trading long balls and clearances. Blah.

-McGee

[Clarkmeister]

"Soccer would be reduced to two teams trading long balls and clearances. Blah."

No it wouldn't, any more than the NBA has guys sitting at the other end. It would significantly open up the game, allowing the true superstars more room to showcase their skills. It's absurd that every single World Cup (seemingly) comes down to PK's. Ties are simply much less likely to occur in a 6-5 paced game than a 0-1 paced game.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Clark makes a good point, all basketball teams realize what they lose by not having that one other person down their playing defense. Cherrypicking would not be effective against a more athletic team, whether its basketball or soccer, or even hockey.

[Aces McGee]

Basketball is different in that all five players play both offense and defense.

Strikers spend a lot of time lurking as close to goal as they possibly can, anyway, doing basically nothing to help their team get the ball back. Stick them down by the 18 yard box, and at least one defender has to go back there with them. The game then turns into "knock the ball downfield and see if the striker beats the defender to it." This is the way soccer is played at the lowest levels: Kick the ball as far as you can and have your guys run after it. It's especially popular with teams who are significantly less skilled than their opponents.

It would eliminate a lot of the buildup in attack and stringing together of passes that makes soccer so beautiful to watch.

-McGee

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrestling is very much like the FULL sprint.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I'd say that's a small exaggeration. Time spent riding an opponent is, as I recall, significantly less taxing than the less stable periods of move-countermove. I think it can act, even for brief periods, as a slight rest.

Note that M2d is talking about big wave surfing, not just regular surfing. I would suppose the difference might be something like that between riding a well mannered horse and bull riding! (perhaps the latter is another sport that might stand up to wrestling in terms of physical demands?)

I wrestled in my youth (attended Sun Devil wrestling camp at Arizona State, wrestled in matches, etc.) But that's admittedly a long time ago, and memories may have faded. Nevertheless, having done just a tiny bit of conventional surfing and a bit more body surfing, I could imagine that big wave surfing could be as taxing or more taxing than wrestling. I seriously doubt you could big wave surf without a break for much longer than you could wrestle.

There's a point, I think, at which the waves get too big to get out to them without something like a jet ski. Just before that point, you've got to figure the trip out alone is going to be hugely exhausting.

Of course these are all just educated guesses. I could be wrong. And I kind of wish ThaSaltCracka would make a similar statement rather than appearing to be stating facts when he's clearly guessing as well. The latter is my main internet pet peeve. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
"Soccer would be reduced to two teams trading long balls and clearances. Blah."

No it wouldn't, any more than the NBA has guys sitting at the other end. It would significantly open up the game, allowing the true superstars more room to showcase their skills. It's absurd that every single World Cup (seemingly) comes down to PK's. Ties are simply much less likely to occur in a 6-5 paced game than a 0-1 paced game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The World Cup is only every 4 years most of us fans dont actually care that much about it.

Getting rid of offside would be the same as playing poker with the cards up faced, or saying well lets make it 10 downs so that we get more touchdowns in US football.

The offside rule is probably the most important part of the game, and actually worse teams tend to pack all their players behind the ball its the better teams that play offside well as a defensive strategy, Arsenal in particular in the 90's were fantastic at this.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course these are all just educated guesses. I could be wrong. And I kind of wish ThaSaltCracka would make a similar statement rather than appearing to be stating facts when he's clearly guessing as well. The latter is my main internet pet peeve.

[/ QUOTE ] I never gave any facts about surfing. I said was I cannot see how it was as physical, which is a statement of opinion. I stated several times I never surfed, and I guessed that it's not as hard. My main pet peeve is people accusing other people of things they didn't do.

[Gamblor]

While you're lucky Team Canada consisted of rejects (as in, the scouting was more thorough in Canada thus your rejects were relatively better than our rejects), I understand how that must feel and thus I can't for the life of me understand why you can't get 15 people out to see the Predators or Thrashers or Blue Jackets play the single greatest sport ever created.

Maybe this lockout will be for the best; we'll see a 21 team league as it was back in 1980.

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
My main pet peeve is people accusing other people of things they didn't do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things you said:


[ QUOTE ]
Excuse me, but the mere assertion that surfing is as hard as wrestling from a physical standpoint is completely absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
its certainly not as physically demanding as wrestling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter what else you said, statements like that come off as though you're trying to sound like you "know," when you don't.

[ThaSaltCracka]

this is the last thing I am saying.
Taken out of context things can look however you want.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrestling is very much like the FULL sprint.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hmmm, I'd say that's a small exaggeration. Time spent riding an opponent is, as I recall, significantly less taxing than the less stable periods of move-countermove. I think it can act, even for brief periods, as a slight rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I couldn't find the exact parallel there, so I settled for saying it is "very much like". Maybe I should have said it is "more like". I think wrestling practice or casual wrestling has more of those breaks you describe, while an actual competitive match has fewer. I also think the explosive strength often required more or less offsets the slight rests. I found wrestling far more draining than sport judo--and in our judo club, we generally spent over half the two-hour session in casual freestyle competitions. I could see doing 4 or 5 judo matches in a tournament in a day--but not 4 or 5 serious wrestling matches (at least not for me).

Having never surfed, I did not realize there was so much to even paddling out to the waves until Once and Future explained that to me. I will acknowledge that big wave surfing must be considerably harder than I would have guessed. Still, if someone can spend two hours paddling then surf the wave, I don't see how that can be as physically demanding as wrestling two hours straight--because I don't think anybody can really wrestle for two hours straight (unless they are just fooling around or are against a poor opponent. Can you think of anyone who could wrestle a serious match for 2 hours straight? I just don't think it would be possible if both parties were really trying. Hence it seems to me that any sport that someone can do for two hours straight must be by definition less physically demanding).

[Boris]

Classic!

I don't know how you define athlete but I think baseball requires the most skill of any sport and it's not even close. As proof just look at the salaries and power structure in baseball compared to football or soccer. Baseball is the only sport where the players hold all the marbles. Football players get screwed by comparison. Do you think its a coincidence that all the two sport athletes in College try ot make it Baseball before going back to plan B (football)?

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
Still, if someone can spend two hours paddling then surf the wave, I don't see how that can be as physically demanding as wrestling two hours straight--because I don't think anybody can really wrestle for two hours straight

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm doubting anyone can engage in two straight hours of big wave surfing, whether or not you include the paddling. Did M2d or the king describe it (big wave, not conventional surfing) that way? (I don't want to go back and review all the posts.) They would know much better than I, but I'm picturing, like, 10 grueling minutes to get out to the waves, and a frightening half minute on the wave, sometimes ending in thrashing, near-death moments of violence. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[John Feeney]

Hey Salt, I have no reason whatsoever intentionally to distort what you're saying. Other's might not get the same impression from you; it's just that those comments (among others) stood out to me as absolutes that detracted from the quality of your argument. I didn't mean to single you out; you just happened to be the one who used such comments this time. It's rampant all over the Net, and is, as I said, something that rubs me the wrong way, perhaps more than it does others. In fact, it must not bother many others, as few ever bother to complain about it. I guess I just see such statements as disguising true nature of a poster's argument. That is, they seem to me to be a sort of argument tactic, designed to sway a reader rather than to make a point objectively.

[MMMMMM]

Well, it's a long thread, John. I poked around and here is what I found, by Once and Future, without going back and reading every last post:

[ QUOTE ]
You would have done had you read my two post earlier on in this thread in which I point out quite clearly that I agree wrestling is harder than surfing. Fer fecks sake.

Look its quite simple.

Paddling a board 100m through surf is much more tiring than swimming 100m through surf.

You seem to have a very solid pre concieved impression about paddling a surfboard. After only about 20m your arms begin to ache as though they are gona fall off for ever. Arms arnt made to trasnport the human body around. After 2 hours of this + plus duck diving and hold down so you are making maximum physical effort without proper oxygen levels you are just broken physicaly. There is nothing at all left.

Trust me if you wnet surfing after 30 mins you would be totaly spent. I mean going home and not being able to move for the rest of the day spent.

[/ QUOTE ]

[John Feeney]

...we need to know if, in the passage M quoted above, you were talking about big wave surfing or the more conventional variety.

[The once and future king]

I have never wrestled. I imagine it is harder than surfing because it is full tilt for the duration.

If surfing was constant paddling then no way could you do it for 2 hours. Surfing is exausting effort broken up by short periods of rest (Paddle out/ wait-rest/ catch wave/ paddle out/ repeat.). This is what allows one to have a surfing session that lasts 2 hours. The bigger the waves the harder the paddle out intialy and then after each wave. Some sessions (We call them paddleathons) last less time due to certains sea conditions e.g. rip curents and sneaker sets.

The thing with surfing is it is a massive effort but there is bigger pay back when you catch a wave. One is so pumped by adrenalin that you dont notice how tired you are untill there is a lull in the surf. I have had surf sessions were I have got out of the surf taken 10 steps up the beach and collapsed in exaustion and had to be revived by lifegaurds.

A beginer will not be able to paddle out into a 4 foot+ line up until at least 60 hours of acclimation to the physical effort and technique needed.

My question is, could you wrestle for two hours if after each bout you were given a 8-10 minute rest. Im not sure if you could. As far as BIG wave surfing is concerned its hard to compare. One wipeout and your session and maybe your life is over.

Another point. Wrestlers dont have to get changed into and out of there wetsuits in a sub zero carpark in the UK in febuary.

Surely that has to count for something. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Dude]

Personally, it's fun for me to hear about how physically demanding surfing can get. I've always enjoyed things that have been extremely demanding. Having only surfed once (and that on a long-board big enough I barely had to paddle to catch the wave), I've never experienced it at its harshest.

[ QUOTE ]
The thing with surfing is ... one is so pumped by adrenalin that you dont notice how tired you are untill there is a lull in the surf.

[/ QUOTE ]
I love this. I've walked off the wrestling mat with so many bruises and cuts, and until I watched the video I couldn't recall when in the match it happened. My Junior year a teammate broke his ankle during a match, but didn't even limp off the mat. It wasn't until an hour later when he couldn't even stand that he realized anything was wrong. Good times.

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, could you wrestle for two hours if after each bout you were given a 8-10 minute rest.

[/ QUOTE ]
No way in hell. 8-10 minutes is barely any rest once you're completely expended - whether from wresting, surfing, triathaloning (I like that 'word'), or anything else. 2 hours would be 20 mathces!!! The state of Washington will not allow high school wrestlers to wrestle more than 4 matches in one day!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Another point. Wrestlers dont have to get changed into and out of there wetsuits in a sub zero carpark in the UK in febuary.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but I have wrestled in a gym packed full of 4,000 people and 8 wrestling mats, with no air conditioning!!! Even in October in WA that can get unbearably hot and muggy. Oh yeah, and there's no water breaks in wrestling. If you tell the ref "I'm dehydrated, I need water," he'll say "too bad, let's go." Good times.

[M2d]

but I found this cool pic in today's Honolulu Star Bulletin (front page, no less). it was taken yesterday at the Eddie Aikau Big Wave Classic.
http://www.starbulletin.com/promopic.jpg
Here's another from the contest
http://starbulletin.com/2004/12/16/news/art2c.jpg

[ThaSaltCracka]

you clearly are.

Cool pics though.

[M2d]

Naw, I'm not getting into any of that. I just liked the pics.

[Boris]

I've stretched the salami lots and lots and let me tell you it is way harder than you think. Have you tried to do it once every hour? once every half hour? Once every 15 minutes? All those gay baits in soccer and wrestling and water polo got nothing on me when it comes to D-1 level salami stretching.