KK vs open-raise all-in in the second orbit of tournament

[modernmess]

Friday night UB 5.50 1500 added tourny. 1600 players, nearly 10k prize pool.

15th hand and im dealt KK on the button. UTG+1 open raises all in for 1000 or so. Everyone folds to me. I have 930. No reads to go off of. Looks like he could be getting tricky w/ AA, but then again a lot of the people in these tournaments in the beginning could do this with garbage. Fold or call?

[fnord_too]

Call. I know you cannot reason "If he had aces he would play them slower" and be correct all the time, but chances are your hand is good. Without an incredible read I never lay down here.

[Tosh]

Call, its not close.

[betgo]

If it was being normally raised and reraised and someone goes allin with very deep money early in the tournament, in some cases you could fold KK, but probably only in a high buyin tournament. In a similar situation, you might fold it in a deep money cash game.

When someone open raises allin, you don't want to gamble with them by calling with something like AJo. However, their credibility is a lot lower than if it was raised and reraised before the allin.

I would generally call with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQs. If you know the reputation of the raiser and what hands he pulls this stunt with, it will effect what you call with. Also, your requirements are probably looser in a rebuy or lower buyin tournament.

[Che]

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I would generally call with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQs.

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With no read, I agree with this range completely. Against many players I add JJ and even TT (sometimes).

Later,
Che

[smartalecc5]

I call 100% of the time.

[jimotto]

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Quote:

I would generally call with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQs.

With no read, I agree with this range completely. Against many players I add JJ and even TT (sometimes).

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Interesting. I'm thinking I'd make the call with KK and favor AK over QQ, though I'm leaning towards folding both (jaded by doing it earlier this week with qq). Very weak, I guess.

[Roman]

very...

I call here with JJ-AA and AK-AQ. Sometimes if he was dumb before I add TT and occasionally 99 (cutting it close I think).

[renodoc]

I'd call. I think Sklansky covers getting reraised all-in in the THFAP book. Something about the villian holding AA....

[davidross]

SO then what do you think of going all-in with AA hoping to catch someone who doesn't believe you?

[donny5k]

If he has KK he's coming along anyway isn't he? (He should)

[silversurfer]

i'd call, but only on days ending in y. then it would be 100% of the time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

at that point in the tourney, you are still going to find people going all in with aks, aqs, 99, etc.

[Che]

I never open-raise all-in with 50xBB or the like because the opponents will not have KK-JJ, AK/AQ often enough (and many will lay some of those down based on the "don't go all-in early because you might bust out" mantra).

Picking up the blinds for a 1% stack increase 19 times out of 20 just doesn't make sense with the best hand.

But you know all this, David, so why are you asking? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Che

[Eder]

Against a strong table pushing with AA hides the strength of the hand nicely, but 2nd orbit I dont know if many would do this.
Last night I pushed post flop early to grab nice pot with A4o driving out the 2 better hands and showed my cards....about 3 orbits later I saw AA (blinds 25/50)...I pushed preflop in EP and got 2 callers both holding AJ...so I guess it depends
But ya definetly KK has to call here...to nice a pot to worry about AA imo

[Tosh]

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But you know all this, David, so why are you asking? /images/graemlins/grin.gif


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Maybe David means after some fishy limpers? Though I still think its normally silly.

[davidross]

I'm asking because almost every one here mentioned it being unlikely that the all-in guy had AA. I'm wondering if you might not get some calls you wouldn't normally get because of this. WIth blinds at 10/15 you're not looking to make much off the AA hand without risking a lot more post-flop anyway. Just a thought. I think it would be a lot more effective after a limper or two, when they will think it looks like a steal with Ax or something.

[fnurt]

In a $5 online tournament, it's not so unreasonable.

[modernmess]

good, i thought the same as all of you. i called with little or no hesitation - there were just too many hands i beat for a quick and easy double up, and it was after all a $5 tournament (i usually dont play mtts this low). even though he flipped over AA i felt it was more unlucky than a bad play on my part.
but then i began to think what some of you posted about - and that is that in the first few orbits of a tounrament w/ incredibly low blinds maybe this isnt such a bad play w/ AA - if you just push all in youll either win 15 chips in blinds or if you get called have great odds to double up the type of hands that could call you. eh, i still dont like it.

but another question: say it is the exact same situation, you have KK on the button vs open-raise allin, but this time it is a higher stakes tournament - say anywhere from a $500 buy-in to $10,000. granted, you might be less likely to see this play, but would you still be so quick to risk your entire tournament life w/ KK on the second orbit without any solid read? in other words, is this a 100% call w/out a read, regardless of how much is on the line?

[betgo]

In a high stakes tournament, you call an open raise allin with KK. In fact, you might be more inclined to call, because someone is less likely to try this with AA in a major tournament, because they are less likely to get called.

If you reraise to 2000 with KK and someone reraises to 10,000 allin, you should seriously consider folding in the first round of a major tournament.

Once you got KK and the other guy got AA, it was pretty certain you were going to the felt so to speak, however it was played.