A question for David

I've read almost all that you and Mason have written and, like most, have benefitted greatly from the info.


I just finished reading "Pros vs. Wannabees" and have a question:


You state that there are about 600 pros (in the U.S.?) making $80,000 or more not including specialty players (including high profile tournament players) which you numbered at about 100.


Exactly what do you mean by this? Are you talking about pros, who do nothing else but play poker and live off the income? Does this include retired (from successful professions) players that have already ammassed enough money to not touch their retirement money? What about semi-pros that have jobs but make money at poker?


I ask these questions because I heard you quoted from this material the other day and I was told by this person that there are only 600 succesful pros making money at poker. I told him that is not what you meant and that there are thousands of pros and semi-pros making alot of money playing the game.


How many players do you estimate make a certain amount of money playing poker? Working exclusively at it or in addition to some other employment or business? Below are amounts, if you could give me your estimates for U.S. players.


Making over $70,000=

Making over $60,000=

Making over $50,000=

Making over $40,000=

Making over $25,000=


I ask this, because I live, work and play in CT where ther are just 2 cardrooms but I am quite sure that there are over 100 and quite possibly more than 200 I believe are making a tidy sum year after year. I do agree that the number exceeding $80,000 (which you'd have to be playing full time to make) is a small few here. But I know personally of dozens of people from all walks off life with great games and making good money, be it on the side or their only source.


Your estimates would be both entertaining and encouraging to many of us who frequent Two Plus Two.


Sincerely,

Glen Peterson

What is the split of pros between private home games and legal cardrooms? I imagine the number of winning cheats in home games is greater than the number of skilled winners.

I can't get this specific. Altogether there are a thousand or so human beings who play poker well enough that, if, necessary could win $1500 a week in public card rooms, not including the internet. I don't have an opinion about the rest.

I would think your estimate of the number of players talented enough to win $1500 a week on a regular basis is probably correct. But I feel that the number of serious winning players, who put in , say 900 or more hours per year, and make more than $20,000 additional income exceeds 50,000 or more.


I think that there are alot of very solid players taking money on a very consistant basis, who perhaps don't make this their career but play very often and very well.


I know, personally, from just these 2 card rooms, dozens of winning players. Two of the put together remarkable years last year. One, who plays $10-$20 stud exclusively, and is not what I would call an expert but just a real solid player with good decision making ability, had only 4 losing sessions all year averaging 2-3 sessions per week. The other is one of those quiet, un-noticed pros playing $10-$20 and $15-$30 holdem, had a win streak of 56 sessions followed by one loss and then 23 more winners in a six month period. He has averaged $50K a year now for 4-5 years and is just 28 years old. And as a dealer/player I know of many others I suspect are doing quite well.


Thanks for your time anyway.

N/t

people making $20,000 per year playing poker? That seems WAY too high!!! Anyone else agree?

50,000 minus about 48,000 liars!!!! If ihad to guess, I would say that only about 8% of people who play poker are consistantly ahead of the game at all. There are players who control their losses and are solid enough to play on a regular basis and have some fun for a small price. I think that would represent the vast majority of regulars to the game. The others are people that like poker, but just don't understand some of the more sophisticated concepts. This group gets lucky from time to time, so they come back.

The swmaller minority are the degenerate gamblers looking for a little social interaction.

I can't see 50,000 people making 20K or more per year on a regular basis. Just my opinion.

I know personally 20 or so players making a living at just poker (over $30,000). Add to that another 40-50 who work at other jobs but play 3-4 times a week and win consisitantly at $10-$20 and higher. Those are just the players I know by name.


SO that's 50+ in just 2 card rooms here in CT. Not to mention any that keep in the shadows or move around more. Total of 85 tables at max in CT. There are 50 or so cardrooms in CA, all the Indian casinos in all the waestern states, all the casinos up and down the Mississippi, Detroit, liscened poker in Montana, Atlantic City, NY... the number of card rooms in the U.S. is well into the hundreds, perhaps even a thousand places to play. Seems that the amount of winning players would easily reach that number.


RJ says he thinks 8% of all players win. How many people play? Well over a million. Well then that's 80,000 and at least 1/2 of those or more are playing at or above above $5/10. So if we say those 40,000 are making 1 BB an hour playing 30 hours a week then at least 40,000 players are making at least $15,000.


I think my guess of 50,000 making over $20K is reasonable.

I think my guess of 50,000 making over $20K is reasonable


i think your understanding of the subject is very suspect given that you believe someone could have:


1) had only 4 losing sessions all year averaging 2-3 sessions per week.


2) had a win streak of 56 sessions followed by one loss and then 23 more winners in a six month period

doesn't mean it isn't true. Those are accurate numbers from 2 close friends who play and keep stats that I have witnessed. I don't lie and I have witnessed many of the sessions during those streaks. I Am insulted to be called a liar on a forum I have great respect in.

I did not call you a liar. I did not say you said something that was untrue. I said you believed something that IMHO was very likely to be untrue.

I don't think you can judge how many winning players per club, but rather by the amount of tables. Most poker rooms are very small and many even close as the casinos have trouble keeping the games going. The larger rooms certainly have more people winning at the higher levels, but most rooms across the country spread only lower limit games. Th number of games under 5/10 is higher than 70%. I don't think to say there are 50,000 players in a year who will show a win is unreasonable. I do think that number year in and year out over $20,000 per anum is high.

And yes, I do believe most players grossly exaggerate their wins, or underestimate their losses simply because they do not want to be viewed as degenerate gamblers.

My point was not to rebuke your post,Nor do I 't have any stats to give a real number. My point is simply that I have never met anyone who told me they are behind this game. Even the best in the world go through long losing streaks.

Your splitting hairs and trying to get fancy with words, but you are clearly saying that the 2 people I mentioned did not do what I said they did. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. It happens to be an irrefutable fact. Not something I made up or something that was simply told to me but a fact.


Perhaps your game is not good enough to put together winning streaks like that. That is why you can't comprehend it being able to be done. I have had some incredible winning streaks myself. Not to the extent my friends have, but it is certainly comprehensable to me and I have seen the stats.


Whether you used the word liar or not is moot. You clearly said that my judgement was skewed if I believed in those other facts. It's just like if I say the sun came up today. You're inferring that all my judgements is invalid because you say I should not believe the sun came up today because it couldn't have happened.


Maybe you just didn't look outside today!

I know one of the persons Glen is refering to.. and the reason he had such a long winning streak is that he plays against the same bunch of weak-tight loose-passive losers every single day. He knows everything about them. He also plays long sessions when behind.

50,000 players winning over 20K/year averages out to 1,000 players per state. I bet the ONLY state which even MIGHT have 1,000 playews winning 20K per year is California and I would seriously doubt that. No way in Connecticut are there 1,000 players winning 20K even with two huge cardrooms. No way in NJ. Ask David or Mason how many long-term winners they know of at in Las Vegas at 10-20 or higher and I bet the answer way lower than you would guess. There aren't 1,000 pplayers in Nevada winning 20K per year--it's just a number that is WAY WAY out of line.