"I wanna see your cards"

[Nate tha' Great]

My live game experience is quite limited and I experienced this situation for the first time last night in the 20/40 at Harrah's Chicago. This particular situation was especially vexing because it was just my second hand in the main game and the way that the hand was played out, revealing my hole cards would have given a fair bit of information away to my opponents.

As it happened, I had already thrown my cards *toward* the muck but not *into* the muck by time the request was made (I was in the #9 seat), so there was really nothing I could do to prevent the dealer from turning them over. My question is: what is the best way to go about making it known that you aren't particularly happy about this *without* coming across as a total jerk? As it happened, the floor was called by mutual request and the manager on duty did not say what I was hoping that he would about the purpose of the rule, claiming that it was simply a matter of "courtesy". I dropped the issue at that point and had little problem making amends with my opponent, but the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth.

[chesspain]

What bernie would probably say: "Why do you care if he wants to see your cards; he's not going to learn much from them anyway. It's in the rules that your cards can be shown, so stop being a baby, and grow up, and for God's sake, don't let someone put you on tilt because you can't handle playing by the rules."

Here is what chesspain would say: "During the session, attempt to fire as many of your mucked hands directly in to the muck pile as possible, so that you become skilled at shooting your hand into the muck whenever you need to thwart the nits!"

[All-In]

Just start asking to see his mucked hands. They'll ususally get the hint after that.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

An old subject that provides a thread at least once a month. I usually play in a room that does not require dealers to show unless asked by a floor. (It hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.) Most places it is an unpleasant fact--live w/ it.

I agree w/ both chesspain and bernie as quoted above. 1. whatever, they cannot learn that much. Some people just suck, let 'em keep suckin' and 2. Put 'em in the muck and smile.

Heres a great article by Tommy Angelo

http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/i_want_to_see_that_hand.htm

Says it all--PT

[Porcupine]

I agree with chesspain on this one.

At the Mirage a few weeks ago, I had my first experience of someone asking to see my cards. Before the dealer could turn them over, I said "you can't pull cards out of the muck' (it was the classic my cards where touching the muck, put it was 100% clear which 2 cards were mine). The old man gave me a mean look and said "I have the right to see your cards", I agreed he did but pointed out again that "the dealer can't pull cards out of the muck". The dealer agreed that he couldn't pull cards from the muck and promptly pushed all the cards into a stack for shuffling.

Being stuck and feeling like being difficult, I was waiting for the opportunity to fire a hand into the muck, but I never saw a hand worth going to the river with before he left. He asked to see most hands, but no one made a big issue of it.

[driller]

Who is required to show their cards first?

[ChicagoTroy]

This is infuriating. I had it happen at Trump a couple months back and raised a stink because it was the second time he'd asked.

My present opinion is that preventing this is the final step of hand protection. Get the cards in the muck every time, preferably before the opportunity is there to ask.

How late did you boys stay?

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Before the dealer could turn them over, I said "you can't pull cards out of the muck' (it was the classic my cards where touching the muck, put it was 100% clear which 2 cards were mine). The old man gave me a mean look and said "I have the right to see your cards", I agreed he did but pointed out again that "the dealer can't pull cards out of the muck". The dealer agreed that he couldn't pull cards from the muck and promptly pushed all the cards into a stack for shuffling.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY! If I fold to the winner on the river, I ALWAYS fire my cards into the muck. Same situation as described above happened to me. I had to call the floor, cause the dealer (a new one), was about to turn over the cards. The floor agreed with me, and the hand stayed dead.

[steamboatin]

If I call your bet, I can wait until you show your cards before I show mine. I usually go ahead and show my cards but that is probably a mistake in the long run.

[driller]

That's the way we played at home. I haven't played much in a casino, but what I recall is for the dealer saying something like "Let's see some cards"

[andyfox]

In my experience, making a stink about it only escalates the situation. Usually, if you say nothing and show no emotion about it, it doesn't happen again. I see lots of guys who start asking to see the original offender's hands and then it ends up in a mess.

[bernie]

Haha. Does that sound like me? Probably close. Here's a question that always seems to go unanswered. Especially when it's an internet player (not necesarily aimed at the poster, just a general observation) playing live and getting upset about this...

Online, they can do a hand history at any time. Anyone can do it. What's the difference? Online games are still good and beatable.

Everyone who think this will have a major effect on one's game, aside from that fact it's only one hand, must also believe that with the advent of pokertracker online, which does HH automatically for all players tracking their play, online would be unbeatable. Same logic applied yet more-so since online you have the advantage of having a computer doing the brainwork and memory.

I still don't care if someone wants to see my hand at showdown. I know it's a possibility every time i go to showdown. There are better places to put your energy than worrying about this. It's really not that big of a deal.

The one part i don't like about it is that it can slow a game down if done excessively. Which is rare if it ever gets to that point.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Just start asking to see his mucked hands. They'll ususally get the hint after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you're the one dragging the pot. The guy would love to see you ask to see his hand and having the dealer turn up the winner. In my room, if the one who asked is the dragger of the pot, the pot can go the other way.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This is infuriating.

[/ QUOTE ]

You take it too seriously.

b

[bernie]

When 2 guys are at showdown staring at eachother waiting for the other one to show. Just flip your damn hand. After about 10-15+ sec, which is quite awhile to sit and watch to guys in a chinese standoff,i say, 'all hands please.' Then before they show, i usually turn back to my meal/conversation and wait for the next hand.

Some people, usually not in the hand, call this rule into play on 4th street after lots of action not even waiting for showdown.

b

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
What bernie would probably say: "Why do you care if he wants to see your cards; he's not going to learn much from them anyway. It's in the rules that your cards can be shown, so stop being a baby, and grow up, and for God's sake, don't let someone put you on tilt because you can't handle playing by the rules."

Here is what chesspain would say: "During the session, attempt to fire as many of your mucked hands directly in to the muck pile as possible, so that you become skilled at shooting your hand into the muck whenever you need to thwart the nits!"

[/ QUOTE ]

ChessPain, its interesting that you feel this way, but you're a Psychologist. It seems pretty immature.

[turnipmonster]

learn to flick your cards with your middle finger so they just go right into the muck. it takes a little practice but you won't get tennis elbow from constantly folding /images/graemlins/wink.gif

--turnipmonster

[bdk3clash]

Since the most frequent action I do at a poker table is fold, I'm shockingly accurate at using the technique mentioned by turnipmonster above. I still have to work on my aim online, though.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Who is required to show their cards first?

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrah's uses the standard rule about last aggressor. In this pot the action on the turn had gone check(me)-check-bet-raise(me)-3bet-call-call and the action on the river had gone check(me)-bet-call-overcall(me) so I would not ordinarily have been obligated to show.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
This is infuriating. I had it happen at Trump a couple months back and raised a stink because it was the second time he'd asked.

My present opinion is that preventing this is the final step of hand protection. Get the cards in the muck every time, preferably before the opportunity is there to ask.

How late did you boys stay?

[/ QUOTE ]

~5 AM or so for a nice nine-hour session. Ask Steve about the dude who has been there since Tuesday afternoon.

[ChicagoTroy]

He told me about it about an hour ago. What a sick monkey.

Bet his breath was fabulous.

[Bob Moss]

Better than throwing them directly in to the muck, you should also consider setting them on fire, and probably asking for a new deck.

Bob

[Lawrence Ng]

Rip the cards up, swallow them, and then [censored] them out and hand 'em to yer opponent.

[ZManODS]

Say i throw my cards into the much. My cards land on the bottom of other cards, it is still obvious which two cards are mine. Can someone ask to see my card at that time?

Well in that case the dealer did show my cards! I thought once the cards hit the muck aka touching other cards that they couldnt show. Am i right?

[emp1346]

here's something related to this that pisses me off... http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~eric-procter/emoticons/furious.gif

when you call someone and they ask something like 'can you beat a pair of threes?' to which you respond 'yeah' and they muck... http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~eric-procter/emoticons/furious.gif i paid to see your damn cards! i don't care if you say i won and i drag the pot, show me the damn cards...

when you call someone and they flip one card, as if the fact that they have top pair means something... http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~eric-procter/emoticons/furious.gif even if i can't beat it, i want to see the other card... maybe they had trips, maybe two pair, maybe whatever... if i pay to see your cards you show me your goddamn cards!

once when a guy i called mucked after i flipped mine before him, i pulled them out of the muck and flipped them... he got all upset like i had no right... http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~eric-procter/emoticons/furious.gif i was in a bad mood already and told him, long and short, to [censored] off...

i must say that now when i call someone on the river, i wait for them to turn their cards... i've been pissed off too many times...

[jayrutz2]

How do people feel about this rule. Is it rude to demand a full show if the players shows his neighbor a peek?

[MoreWineII]

I never show my cards unless I absolutely have to and I'm very skillful at mucking my cards quickly.

If the abuse (and it *is* abuse) of this rule designed to prevent collusion bothers you, then I suggest you learn to muck quickly also.

Once your opponent has asked to see all hands and your hand are still un-mucked, your hand is fair game.

However, if one person was habitually asking to see hands, I'd have a word with them, and wouldn't care if I came across as a jerk.

I should clarify, the "show one show all" rule doesn't bother me, simply because I never show just one person. The abuse of the collusion rule, at times, does.

[Porcupine]

I like this rule, but don't use it every time I could. Sometimes, if I feel it will hurt the friendly nature of the table, I'll just let it go.

[BubbleBoy]

I don't think it is rude at all. I don't play in B&Ms a lot, but aren't there usually a couple rules which state that if you show someone your cards you must show it to everyone and if you show one card you must show the other?

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
if you show one card you must show the other?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the situation... I played a hand a couple weeks ago where I called an EP raiser (and a gaggle of callers) with K4s in the big blind (thanks Ed!)... Flopped two pair... check-raised the Turn and rivered another K filling me up... I bet the river and the two remaining players (including the pre-flop raiser) folded.

I exposed my 4, and only the 4, for everyone to see and then turned them over. pre-flop raiser says 'show one show all' so the dealer turns the cards face up again, but is careful to only expose the 4, then turns them over again. PFR says 'show one show all, I didn't see the other card'. Dealer tells him he can't do that... the other player who folded on the river say's 'no one called his bet, we don't get to see that card' (which is easy for him to say because, while he's a bit of a loose cannon he's observant enough to know there is only one card I could have in that situation). Floor get's called and explains to PFR that no he doesn't get to see my other card. PFR is a little ticked and says 'well, I'll just re-raise you next time'

Fun Times!

[jayrutz2]

I was refering to show one player show all players. I think it is legit if folded down to expose one card only.

K

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i've been pissed off too many times

[/ QUOTE ]

Seek therapy. It's really not worth getting that upset about. There are much better areas to expend your mental energy.

Y'know, sometimes some players will muck a winner at showdown. If they table it when forced to, you lose. Or in case at my cardroom, the winner asks to see the guys hand and it's the winner, he takes the pot if it's the 'winning' player that asks to see the hand. I've seen this happen a few times. Great entertainment for us waiting for the next hand.

[ QUOTE ]
once when a guy i called mucked after i flipped mine before him, i pulled them out of the muck and flipped them... he got all upset like i had no right... i was in a bad mood already and told him, long and short, to [censored] off...


[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure you told him. Aren't you great? Stop the presses and look who's on the table! Everyone gather 'round!

You had no right. Once the cards touch the muck, they're 'supposed' to be unretrievable. This is extremely poor play on your part. I wouldn't suggest making a habit of this.

b

[parade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've been pissed off too many times

[/ QUOTE ]

Seek therapy. It's really not worth getting that upset about. There are much better areas to expend your mental energy.

Y'know, sometimes some players will muck a winner at showdown. If they table it when forced to, you lose. Or in case at my cardroom, the winner asks to see the guys hand and it's the winner, he takes the pot if it's the 'winning' player that asks to see the hand. I've seen this happen a few times. Great entertainment for us waiting for the next hand.

[ QUOTE ]
once when a guy i called mucked after i flipped mine before him, i pulled them out of the muck and flipped them... he got all upset like i had no right... i was in a bad mood already and told him, long and short, to [censored] off...


[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure you told him. Aren't you great? Stop the presses and look who's on the table! Everyone gather 'round!

You had no right. Once the cards touch the muck, they're 'supposed' to be unretrievable. This is extremely poor play on your part. I wouldn't suggest making a habit of this.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention that other players' cards are off limits to you. You are only allowed to touch your own cards....

[Noo Yawk]

It's no big deal, and if you guys let it get to you by asking to see their hands all the time, don't ya think the game may tighten up a tad? Well at least your AA will hold up in the teeny pots you'll be draggin'.

Have fun. Poker's supposed to be fun. Being pissed isn't fun. Drinking's fun. Winning's fun. Sex is lot's of fun.
Getting mad because someone wants to see your hand, that's not fun.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
It's no big deal, and if you guys let it get to you by asking to see their hands all the time, don't ya think the game may tighten up a tad? Well at least your AA will hold up in the teeny pots you'll be draggin'.

Have fun. Poker's supposed to be fun. Being pissed isn't fun. Drinking's fun. Winning's fun. Sex is lot's of fun.
Getting mad because someone wants to see your hand, that's not fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the thing. I wasn't mad or emotionally affected, but calling the floor made me look like a serious player, and this was at a nice, loose, juicy table (though I did not know it at the time) where appearing to be one of the boys would probably have been good for my action and my bankroll.

[RydenStoompala]

I vote with Lawrence on this. Pooping your cards out will keep the demands to see them very infrequent. Also, pulling down your pants and exclaiming "cards?!!? oh, I thought you said you want to see my butt! sorry!"