Party 3/6: Simple, little set o'Jacks hand?

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

No solid reads on either player, although UTG seemed like an O.K. player (for whatever that's worth /images/graemlins/smirk.gif).

Preflop: chesspain is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, chesspain calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (11.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, Button folds, UTG folds.

With both an UTG raiser and a capper preflop, I don't know if I failed to maximize my payout on this hand. Maybe try to checkraise the flop or river? Or just bet every street, and collect what I can?

[Alobar]

I checkraise the flop here. If buttons got a really powerful hand he'll likely 3 bet it, or smooth call to raise you on the turn.

a river checkraise here would be a bad idea. Button has shown he doesnt like his hand very much, I doubt he bets it for you

[Bigdaddydvo]

w/a preflop cap, i'd hope you'd be in there w/an overpair to give your set action. unfortunately, looks like AK called ya down the whole way only to bail at the river.

[Eihli]

I think a lot of times you'll get raised on this flop and can 3bet, so betting out is max ev.

[blackaces13]

That's perfect. They had overcards.

[dejableu]

Checking the river would have been a mistake. It's too bad you couldn't get more action, but I think you played it perfectly. And you still made out all right, considering the preflop action.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of times you'll get raised on this flop and can 3bet, so betting out is max ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting this flop is only going to kill your action on the later streets.

[balkii]

you should checkraise the flop to trap UTG, and take it from there. if button has a big pair he will either 3-bet the flop, and allow you checkraise him AGAIN on the turn, or he will smooth call and raise you on the turn, allowing you to 3-bet there. I think betting this flop is a mistake unless button is the type who would check behind AK/AQ here. not many will.

[Eihli]

...or call and c/r the turn.

[amerksmann22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of times you'll get raised on this flop and can 3bet, so betting out is max ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting this flop is only going to kill your action on the later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would a check raise.

I like to play my hands fast here w/ action preflop and hope that someone hasa big hand and I can get into a war.

[Eihli]

On second thought I think I'd just 3bet the flop. If the board was less coordinated I'd call the flop raise and try for a c/r on the turn, but I don't want to accidently give AK, AQ, KQ, Q9, or any clubs a free turn.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting this flop is a mistake unless button is the type who would check behind AK/AQ here. not many will.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think that most people with AK/AQ would bet the flop, even though betting there makes no sense against a PF raiser and a three-bettor?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I think you played it right. Sadly, the AK and AQ your opponents likely held never hit. Sometimes you just don't get paid off on your monsters.

I prolly would not have gone for the CR on the turn. You are too likely to whiff. I hate that.

[J.R.]

So you think that most people with AK/AQ would bet the flop, even though betting there makes no sense against a PF raiser and a three-bettor?

Is this an inside joke I am missing? How can you post this after playing at laast a few K 3-6 hands?

[J.R.]

My advice is to stay up later (if you can) if you don't see stuff like this going on.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (32 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (28 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (44 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 47 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 47 BB, between MP1, SB and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (47 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has Kd Jh (high card, ace).
BB has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
MP1 has Qd Qh (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 47 BB. </font>

[chesspain]

Very entertaining...I'm not exactly sure how it pertains to my hand, but very entertaining nonetheless. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you can't go wrong with betting imo. there's a good possibility you'll get raised and coldcalled and then you can throw in a 3-bet.

the only other line that's reasonable would be to checkraise the flop. however, you run the risk of AK checking behind and that there's a good chance you won't get 3 bets if you checkraise the flop as some people might be too timid to re-raise even AA or KK.

[J.R.]

Just an example of a person going ape, and playing in a manner you wouldn't. This hand happened while I was reading this, and was an example of why it is wrong to give our opponents too much credit. There are a decent number of players who can and will bet AK/AQ on this flop if you check, so I tend to agree more with Balkii's read. The button capped preflop, and momentum is often followed thru on in this game.

Projecting your thought that you wouldn't bet AK/AQ on this flop onto your opponents may get you into trouble. People do some foolish stuff, and it may be foolhardy to predict that your opponents will always respond to situations in the most rational or optimal manner, especially when analyzing deals with spots where you would slow down. You were doing the 2-4 to 3-6 transition, and this is on spot where the games differ. 3-6 players tend to overplay in comparision, especially as pfrs.

I still think betting the flop is often best, because I think many opponents would bet would be inclined to raise AK/AQ on this flop after capping as well, and UTG raised preflop so I don't expect to lose him on the flop when the button raises and confronts him with calling two on this flop.

[Trix]

CR the flop, they hardly ever check through after capping pre.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

I still think betting the flop is often best, because I think many opponents would bet would be inclined to raise AK/AQ on this flop after capping as well, and UTG raised preflop so I don't expect to lose him on the flop when the button raises and confronts him with calling two on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought at that moment was that the button would likely give me action with an overpair regardless of whether I bet the flop or not, although if he was willing to check through AQ/AK then I had just given free cards to both opponents (which would suck if the openraiser had AQ/KQ while the capper had AK), while also losing a nearly guaranteed 2SB, with no assurance of being able to make this up on a later street.

[J.R.]

I'd bet with the expectation that the preflop capper would raise me with both overcards and overpairs (a raise which I woud expect UTG to call), not because I feared it would get checked thru if I did not bet the flop. I really don't expect the garden variety 3-6 player to check this thru with overcards.

Another reason for the bet / 3-bet plan is that if an A or K turns I have an expectation that the type of opponent who caps with AK/AQ preflop can and may throw in a raise when they catch their overcard, even in the face of a flop 3-bet. I also think there is a deently large class of opponents who can/will cap this flop for a free card after I 3-bet the flop. Maybe I induce action, play late at night or get lucky with table selection, but I really see a lot of posturing/over representing on the flop from preflop 3-bettors and cappers in this game.