Rules Question

When does a hand become heads up for the purposes of unlimited raises? Does the betting round have to start heads up or can it become heads up during a round?


For example 3 players see the flop. Player A bets, player B raises, and Player C folds. Can A and B continue to raise until one is out of chips, or is it capped at 4 bets?


Another example, Player A bets, B calls, C raises, A reraises and B mucks. How about unlimited raises now?


I am sure that if the 4th bet goes in while still 3 handed no more raises are allowed but what about these cases?

Mr. Peterson:


You wrote:”When does a hand become heads up for the purposes of unlimited raises? Does the betting round have to start heads up or can it become heads up during a round?”


It depends. Years ago in Los Angeles most clubs would restrict raising if the round started with three or more players even if the action got heads up immediately. This was ridiculous; however, I believe some places outside of Los Angeles still use that method. When Hollywood Park opened in 1994 Bob Ciaffone worked the floor and as a prop and he (well, I assume it was Bob since he wrote a column about his rule in Card Player) was able to get them to use his better rule, which was eventually copied by all the Los Angeles clubs. I also believe his method is common in most venues these days.


Here is his rule from the Commerce rulebook (Hollywood Park and the Bike’s books are virtually identical):


[i]In heads up play, there is no maximum number of raises. This applies to any time the action becomes heads-up before the raises have been capped. Once the raising is capped, it cannot be uncapped on that round of betting.[/b]


There are three raises allowed in a multi-way pot in Los Angeles (i.e., this is the cap). So at the moment the third raise is put in, if there are three or more players active in the pot, no further raising is allowed.


You wrote: For example 3 players see the flop. Player A bets, player B raises, and Player C folds. Can A and B continue to raise until one is out of chips, or is it capped at 4 bets?


A and B can continue to raise since player C dropped out before there were three raises.


Another example, Player A bets, B calls, C raises, A reraises and B mucks. How about unlimited raises now?


There are still unlimited raises because there were only two raises when B mucked.


Here are some more examples that may help make this rule clear.


A bets, B calls, C raises, A reraises, B reraises, C folds. The betting is capped because when the third raise went in there were three active players.


A bets, B raises, C calls, A reraises, B folds, C reraises. There is no cap because when the third raise went in there were only two active players.


Some day (when I have time and am not so tired) I hope to write a detailed quiz (with explanation of the answers) on this rule and the half bet rule. I find that far too many dealers and even a few floormen don’t understand it cold and in this business they should. Unfortunately, getting the right people to take and study my quiz would be the hard part.


Regards,


Rick


PS If you have more complicated examples I’ll try to answer them for you.

Where I live, the rule set by our gaming commission states that if the betting round starts with 3 or more players, that the there is a cap at three raises. I hope that they change this rule in the future. I don't see any good reason for capping the betting when one of the players mucks prior to the cap being met. Just for some clarification, the first rule was adapted from the Hilton rulebook which was the "standard" for rules about 5 or 6 years ago. The game has changed however, and become more sophisticated and new rule books are being adopted into many different Casino's. Bob Ciaffones book is one example.


BTW, Rick, I think a quiz would be a great idea. As you know, I believe that all floormen should be forced to take an exam on rules prior to ever starting work as a floorman. I also think it is a good idea for a new floorman to shadow someone with experience to get a grasp on how to address a ruling. I think it is important to walk away from a ruling with the players satisfied that it was fair and impartial. JMHO


Larry

Larry,


The quiz I had in mind would just concern the betting action governed by the rule indicating that any bet that is half a full bet or more (when going all in) is counted as a full bet and any bet less then half a bet is “action only”. Of course those aren’t the exact words in the typical rulebook but you get the idea. I think about a dozen or so combinations would cover every situation although there are some twists with the bring-in when playing stud.


Regarding control of the betting amount I’ve seen many mistakes made by dealers, players, and even floormen. These mistakes cost the knowledgeable player money since you generally give away information correcting it at the table. Of course this type of mistake should never happen since correct application of the rule does not require judgment, just comprehensive knowledge. It might take a couple of months before I can even start it (I’d want it to be complete and also provide good explanations so it could be potentially used as a teaching tool) as I’m really buried with projects outside of poker.


On another rule matter, if I find time I might be making some posts on what constitutes a raise or reraise in terms of hand motion, cutting off chips, pausing to gage reactions, and so on. I’ve seen some real problem raises lately that, if allowed to continue, just are not good for the game. There is something on this posted on the General Holdem forum today that I hope to get to if I don’t fade in the next few minutes.


BTW, where or what area do you work (if you don’t mind my asking).


Regards,


Rick

House rule. I've seen 5 variations: Head's up at the time of the "last" raise (as per Nebiolo above), head's up at the time of the NEXT raise, Heads up at the beginning of the betting round, no other (3rd) player invested that round, and of course the cap is fixed regardless of heads-up.


- Louie