Another fun AK hand

[SossMan]

Another hand from a home game tourney from Labor Day.
$100 buy in, 20 players 4 places pay 40/30/20/10%.

This hand is very early and most people have their initial stacks of 10k.
Blinds are 50-100, no antes.

My table is a mix of very new to very good, with most at the table too loose preflop and too tight on the flop and have no idea how position influences play. In short, a good table for me. They all play scared against me...except the villian in this hand, who is very laggy, and apparently only carries credit cards, because he's never heard of a "check".

Part 1: Preflop
Villian (Laggy) has me covered by about 1000 (11k - 10k)

I get A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP. Two limpers to me I raise to: t500.
Laggy (on my direct left), makes it t1000 to go. Blinds fold, one limper calls (?).

What's my action?

[Pat Southern]

I call and see the flop, its going to be hard to play this hand out of position if you reraise anything less than allin since you know the LAG will bet any flop you check to him.

[MLG]

Call preflop. If you hit then check-raise all-in. If you miss bet out at the flop here (maybe 1500 or so), and put some pressure on him.

[SossMan]

<font color="blue"> If you miss bet out at the flop here (maybe 1500 or so), and put some pressure on him.
</font>

it's 3 handed to the flop if I call.

[MLG]

Right missed that part. I'm not wild about just flat calling preflop then. Given what you said about the competition the limper probably doesn't have AA, and Raisey mcBet could have a rather large range of hands. However, I just can't see a reraise of less than All-in here, as Laggy will probably at least call, and entice the limper along yet again. Playing a big pot 3 handed out of position is not pleasant with AK. Moving all-in is a viable option, but maybe not the best one.

I think calling preflop is probably best. When you hit you still check-raise laggy all-in. When you miss it gets trickier. If limper checks, you check, and lag bets (shock of shocks) you can probably fold if the limper calls. If the limper folds you have to at least seriously consider that you might have the best hand. You can't call though, as credit card boy surely isn't checking behind you on the turn. I suppose you could c-raise all-in on any flop if that happens, but then why not just go all-in preflop. So, if limper checks I bet then if lag folds (?) and limper calls you are probably behind, but you play the rest of the hand with position and can decide whether or not to bluff a later street. If you bet and lag raises you can fold.

Dude, this hand sucks.

[GoldenHorde]

I really hate ever just calling with A-K pre-flop but this seems to be one of those rare occassions when calling is the correct move.

I'm not sure how valid a point this is but i've found when i'm playing inferior competition (home or small buy in live tournies) that I have much more success if I tone down my pre-flop aggression, and concentrate more on seeing alot of cheap flops and using the readily available reads to outplay people after the flop.

[SossMan]

<font color="blue"> I'm not sure how valid a point this is but i've found when i'm playing inferior competition (home or small buy in live tournies) that I have much more success if I tone down my pre-flop aggression, and concentrate more on seeing alot of cheap flops and using the readily available reads to outplay people after the flop. </font>

I agree here, but if they are going to call an overbet preflop with ATs when I have AKs, I want to collect that preflop equity. I do agree, however, that keeping pots smaller allows your opponents to make bigger mistakes later. That's why this hand is interesting to me.

[durron597]

What do you think of the chances of LAG calling you with 88-JJ if you move in? What about AQ? Do you think his miniraise is likely to mean AA or KK? Also, what do you think of the limp-call as a sign of strength (since you say he's supposedly scared of you?)

To get the chips in the pot right now would be a 15% increase in stack size. If the miniraise nor the limp call you have reason to think of as a sign of extreme strength, I like moving in here. I've found that LAG players tend to fall in one of two categories, they either don't like calling allins - they want to be the aggressor, or they call allins way too often (like would call you here with AJ or AQ).

[SossMan]

A decent plan...lot's of if's, though. The limper makes a definite plan a little tougher..
That being said, I flat called because I wasn't sure I wanted to reraise to like 2500-3000 to reopen the action (since another reraise from Yahoo #1 or #2 would almost certainly send me to the bathroom to "yoddle in the porcelain canyon"). FWIW, this is how I would play AA/KK.
With QQ, I would insta-push.

With AKs, however, I wasn't sure that Laggy McNeverFold on my left would fold the hands I would want him to fold, or call with the hands that I would want him to call with. By this, I think if I push, he's going to call me w/ 99/TT/JJ and probably fold AJ/AT maybe even AQ. These are all hands that he would make the original raise with.

I put the limper on a slightly tigher range of hands since I was kind of surprised he called. Something like JJ-55, AQ-ATs. I believe he would have raised (either initially, or limp RR'd w/ AA-QQ, AK). Well, maybe he has AK.

Since I didn't really feel comfortable pushing, and didn't want to reopen the action with a standard raise, and you weren't going to pry AKs from my cold-dead hands, I called.

Flop was interesting.

5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

EP checks. Your action?

(i have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)

[MLG]

check-raise all-in, assuming laggy bets and limper either calls or folds.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of the chances of LAG calling you with 88-JJ if you move in? What about AQ? Do you think his miniraise is likely to mean AA or KK? Also, what do you think of the limp-call as a sign of strength (since you say he's supposedly scared of you?)

To get the chips in the pot right now would be a 15% increase in stack size. If the miniraise nor the limp call you have reason to think of as a sign of extreme strength, I like moving in here. I've found that LAG players tend to fall in one of two categories, they either don't like calling allins - they want to be the aggressor, or they call allins way too often (like would call you here with AJ or AQ).

[/ QUOTE ]

you posted this at the same time i was writing my response to MLG. looks like we are looking at the same factors here. see my response for answers to your question.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raise all-in, assuming laggy bets and limper either calls or folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the obvious answer, and one that I was expecting.

Unfortunately, Lagster St. LAGenstien checked behind me...that little fuckr.

Turn is a J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

EP bets out t5000 (into a t3150 pot). He has about t4000 left (i.e. he's not folding).

I fold and Laggy calls.

River is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

EP check calls Laggy's all in.

any guesses on what they had?

[MLG]

limpy had A-J. Is AA a possibility here for laggy (odd flop check could mean lots of strength). Cuz if that's what happened it would be pretty funny.

[durron597]

EP had TT and LP had AJ.

[fnord_too]

Laggy had J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, the limper had 55. (Say "ouch" laggy, say "whew" sossman, say "you are completely wrong fnord" )

edit

Actually, hard to believe a lagster would check that flop with my guess.

[durron597]

That's not possible because the river was the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not possible because the river was the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

DOH! I had a dude like moment!

[woodguy]

limper had AJ or JJ
Laggy had ???? AKo?

regards,
woodguy

[GoldenHorde]

Limpy certainly looks good for A-J.

Laggy is tougher that check on the flop and call on the turn make me think big hand Q's-A's or trips but I think Q's-A's checks behind so I am gonna have to go with pocket 9's.

[SossMan]

EP had 99 for the flopped set, rivered boat.

Poor Mr. Lagster I. Bet got caught w/ AJo. About the worst runner runner imaginable for him.

Wanna talk about luck, good thing that J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif didn't hit on the turn, since I'm quite sure the guy wasn't laying down his set after it got checked on the flop.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Limpy certainly looks good for A-J.

Laggy is tougher that check on the flop and call on the turn make me think big hand Q's-A's or trips but I think Q's-A's checks behind so I am gonna have to go with pocket 9's.

[/ QUOTE ]

almost got it.

[SossMan]

What does everyone think of EP's play given his probable read of me and Laggy?

[MLG]

I like it, I think.

[Potowame]

Laggy McNeverFold

That is freakin funny !! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Run in to these guys in my 5.5 MTT at ub all the time, Like the guy who called the 9000 reraise with A9os.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

From EPs perspective:

Preflop, limp in EP w/ 99. that's fine at this table.

raised to 500 by a good player...that sucks that he has position on me, but I can probably call this for set value.

reraised to 1000 by a lag, and folded back to me.

this is the one spot where I would consider folding. The problem is that I don't close the action, and the very good player is likely to isolate the LAG's reraise figuring to be way ahead, or have enough overlay to take a coin flip. I am calling about 10% of my stack off vs. two players who are not going to let me see a free turn card. What if I push? I would then isolate the LAG and force the good player to call a limp reraise all in (which the good player will only call w/ AA-QQ, maaaaaybe AKs, but probably not) and 99 figures to be in decent enough shape vs. the LAG (folding equity included).

Fold, Call, Push....a decent case can be made for all.

Personally, I probably end up folding here. I think EP got lucky that I didn't push preflop.
EP gets lucky twice (Good player doesn't push preflop, and he flops top set).
On the flop, I check and expect some major action to me almost 100% of the time. I would be shocked that it got checked around.
On the turn, I like overbetting the pot since it will be tough for the good player to lay down an overpair (that he likely would have checked to the LAG on the flop) that's drawing to 2 outs. It also charges draws the wrong price with one card to come, and it's a nice pot if you can take it down.

River, I'm check raising since LAG is likely to push if I check and fold if I bet.

overall: B+ play.

[durron597]

With the limper having 10k chips (which is more than 8x the bet), I think the only problem with the preflop call was the fact that he was not closing the action (because the LAG was in the hand). Which begs the question: how important is the fact that he was not closing the action?

Secondly, is it possible he had some sort of read (since this is live play) that you were not on AA-QQ, and thus were unlikely to push preflop? How likely is it that you may have raised JJ, TT, 99, AQ, AJ. etc. after two limpers?

[gyndok]

I would move in..

[gyndok]

If you check raise all in you might force him to call because he would be pot committed. I think it better to bet out and take the pot right now.. (but I am a wimp)