JJ vs. several callers.

[Pokerho]

I mentioned this hand briefly in another thread. It drew quite a few comments, whose basic theme was "You're the biggest idiot ever, please come sit at my table." Yet never did they attempt to explain why I was such an idiot.

As a sidenote, previous to this hand, I had been having a rough few days. As such, I probably started questioning my play, and therefore playing incorrectly.

So here's the hand. The table had been a little loose in general. The initial raiser, in 50 or so hands played about 37% of them and raised preflop in 5% of them. I put him on big cards, probably a big pair.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

UTG ($44.25)
UTG+1 ($24.15)
MP1 ($26.15)
MP2 ($30.90)
MP3 ($9.85)
Hero ($33.10)
Button ($23.40)
SB ($61.95)
BB ($26.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to $2</font>, MP2 calls $2, MP3 calls $2, Hero calls $2, Button calls $2, SB folds, BB calls $1.50, UTG calls $1.50.

*** I probably should have reraised here, but this was the biggest question mark for me. The table was a little loose, but not crazy loose. A raise and 2 calls in front of me seemed scary at the time. Foolish?

Flop: ($14.25) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets $5</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises to $7.85 (All-In)</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $31.1 (All-In)</font>, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds.

*** Call here and slowplay to keep the initial raiser around? Remember, at this point I think the guy probably has QQ KK AA or AK, but maybe only has AQ or AJ. I guess I figured with 2 clubs out, I wanted to charge someone to chase.

Turn: ($58.20) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($58.20) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $58.20

Is JJ still a strong hand against so many players? Definitely reraise pf?

Anything other than more "you're a moron" posts will be appreciated.

[Yeknom58]

Easy raise. JJ is strong. Don't underestimate.

When you don't reraise, you let hands like Ax, Kx, Qx in for way to cheap.

[AncientPC]

I disagree with Yeknom. I wouldn't raise with JJ after 2 callers unless I knew they were really loose (as in they normally call 4xBB raises with J3s or something).

I thought flop push was fine. I might've just called and bet the turn, bluffing the flush.

[Yeknom58]

This is 100% wrong and it's not even close. So would you limp with AJs in this spot? I'm willing to bet you would advocate a raise but JJ is like way better than AJs and yet you want to limp.

Not only do you likely have the best hand but you absolutley want people behind you with hands like Ax, Kx, Qx to fold.

[Skjonne]

Easy call. JJ is not that strong. Don't overestimate.

I think going all-in on the flop is mandatory

[jslag]

Unless I know my opponents very well, I would just call most of the time in that spot. There's nothing wrong with that.

I like your push on the flop. If there is a club draw there (rainbow flop), then I'd definitely smooth call instead of pushing.

j.

[ethan]

short version: good call preflop, good raise on the flop. You're playing this hand to flop a set, which is very likely to win.

You got those comments in the other thread because
a) you suggested folding your hand preflop, which is _terrible_
b) you suggested that calling, hitting your hand and winning was somehow extraordinarily lucky. It's not.

With a limper, a raiser and 2 callers to you in late position with a pair JJ or lower this is an automatic call. You may not want to reraise with QQ, either. Reraise the pot with AA/KK.
-------------------------------------
long version:
(...and if you make it partway through this and your eyes start to glaze over, make sure you at least read the bit at the end.)

JJ preflop here is an easy call. If you raise and get reraised, you probably have to throw away your hand and that sucks because it's going to be a big multiway pot (at at least 5-way to the flop) if you just call. This is a great situation to play the hand for set value, although since you have good position and no one seems to like a J-free flop you can take a shot at it. Even if you flop an overpair, MP2's going to bet into you and you'll have to decide whether you think he's semi-bluffing with unimproved high cards or whether he has AA-QQ. With 7 to the flop, if an overcard comes you're likely in trouble. With 2, you're definitely looking to fold. But when you hit your set, as long as you make more than $2 extra postflop the hand is profitable for you (as you'll be making more than 7:1 on your $2 preflop investment) and you're clearly going to do much better than that.

On the flop, MP1 makes a $5 bet into a $14 pot. That's not QQ, not KK, and probably not AA unless MP1 likes slowplaying way, way too much. There are 6 other people in this hand, and that bet doesn't protect an overpair. You make a pot-sized raise, which is fine, but you shouldn't be too surprised to take it down there. The pot's $60, giving people 2:1 on a call - more like 5:2 for button/BB/MP1 because they're shorter-stacked than you. A flush draw might come along with those odds, and another set certainly will, but there's not much else out there. AJ may call you, but 3 jacks are out so it's not likely anyone has it. The action so far makes me think there's no overpair present, but if there is it'll call. Since the push can look like you have A /images/graemlins/club.gifK/Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, there's an outside chance of something ill-advised like TT calling. (MP1 calling with TT would be slightly less stupid, but still not exactly a great idea.) People will not expect a set.

A slightly smaller (but still pot-committing-everyone raise) will sometimes get a player with A /images/graemlins/club.gifK/Q /images/graemlins/club.gif to reraise all-in when he wouldn't call a push. AJs might also stay in. If you feel like bringing these hands along, make it $15 or so with the understanding that all your money has to be in the middle before the river no matter what the turn is. (At $25NL, some players don't understand being pot-committed, and somehow feel better about calling all but $5-10 into a $60 pot than calling all-in. They feel even better raising those last few dollars. They'll do both when they would have folded rather than clicking the "call all in" button. If they happen to fold the turn after missing their draws, you make even more off them.)

A flat-call on the flop is also an option but it's not one I'm all that fond of. I'd rather get MP1 a little more pot-committed if he has a misplayed overpair and clear out Ax /images/graemlins/club.gif behind you. If the turn comes as a club, it may kill your action against anything besides AA with the A /images/graemlins/club.gif and a flush. If you just call the flop and the button calls behind you, it makes your decision semi-ugly on a turn club, particularly if there's a big bet before the action gets to you. You'll likely have odds to call and hope the river pairs the board (or that the bet is the A /images/graemlins/club.gif semi-bluffing) but you won't feel quite so good doing it. Again, no matter what comes on the turn all your money should be in the pot pre-river.

Of all your options, I think the push is the most profitable but the near-push is pretty close. You're a 3:1 favorite against A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, so you make money off the flush draw calling but not as much as you do when he folds. If MP3 also has the flush draw then you make a huge profit from getting other clubs to come along, which makes the decision between the raises closer.

From the discussion in the other thread you sound like you're a little unsure in your play (both pre- and postflop) still, and the push certainly makes your decisions easier. I figured I'd try to give the pros and cons of the other options available, and you should give some thought to them, but I'd advise keeping things simple for a bit.

Hope this all makes some sense and helps you understand why your play was good this hand.

--Ethan

[Wayfare]

I like it. You don't trap yourself and you trap an overpair when you hit a set. You might even get checked to if the flop comes down Kxx and overpair has AQ.

I do not see any idiocy as to the way this hand was played.

[amoeba]

if the poster already puts the initial bettor on a big pair, why would he raise preflop?

His only goal now is to flop his set or fold. With so many preflop callers, it gives him implied odds when he spikes his set. Call preflop was good. Raise would have been bad.

I think OP played this hand perfectly.

[amoeba]

if you are holding AJs in this spot, I hope you are folding.What do you put 3 people ahead of you on? kj? Kq? even KQ you are only slight favorite to.you are dominated by at least 2 of the 3 hands if not all 3.

[Pokerho]

Thanks Ethan for the excellent reply. I will definitely need to read it again, but there was a great deal of insight packed in there.

[Mackerel]

[ QUOTE ]
This is 100% wrong and it's not even close. So would you limp with AJs in this spot? I'm willing to bet you would advocate a raise but JJ is like way better than AJs and yet you want to limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Am I reading this right? After a 4BB raise early and 2 callers to you, you would advocate 3-betting w/AJs? That's just bankroll suicide in most games. And re-raising w/JJ here is bad poker as well unless this is just a crazy loose game (and even then I don't really like it unless you're sure you can drive out the maniacs). You are going to find yourself in a lot of tough spots playing like that.

I think Pokerho played it fine. Call for set value, and get it in when you hit on a board with a flush draw out. A couple of them seem to like their hands, and if you're lucky, the initial raiser will have AA (or one of the cold-callers getting cute) and come along when you push. If they fold, so be it, they probably wouldn't have committed much more anyway unless they caught you.

Mack

[Yeknom58]

I meant AKs and I was specifically referring to the prelflop action.

But in either case that's not he point. The point is JJ should be played because it's a strong freaking hand not for set value or some other silly reason. By not re-raising preflop you're setting yourself up for some tough decisions post flop if the flop comes rags. Your post flop play becomes way easier if you raise preflop. The preflop raiser could have such a wide range of hands it's not even funny and he's going to auto bet pretty much any flop with all of these hands.

[ChipLeader]

Very well played. There are variations, as have been mentioned, that would also be acceptable but i think the way you played it saves you the headache and just gets the money in while youre ahead. Raising preflop would have been TERRIBLE where you were. The players like the hand and you raising wont scare them, as they will be licking their lips at the implied odds if they hit. 99-QQ is overplayed far too often. JJ is extremely vulnerable, as the flop will contain an A, K, or Q often enough, as well as straight and flush draws. The hand is only valuable is an overpair or as a set, in any hand, and loses even more value as more people enter the pot, as the overpair may not even hold up at that point. Very often, i will limp in with JJ-99 simply because there are so many limpers and i wont be able to put all the preflop callers on a specific hand and therefore have a headache to deal with on the flop if the A, K, or Q falls. If i limp in, ive commited 1 BB and can play without feeling committed. Whats ironic is AA and KK need more protection than QQ or JJ, because its so hard to know where youre at. Remember, a PP is only ONE PAIR, it is easily outdrawn. The reason you play hands that you KNOW are behind preflop is because you KNWO people cant fold AA and KK, so your set / two pair are going to take every cent he has, where as if you miss you fold for minimal damage.
Save the headache, limp the Js from EP and get out cheap or get in deep after it improves.

[ethan]

No problem. Go ahead and PM me if you have any questions. There's also a lot of good info in the archives regarding playing JJ, since it's often pretty tricky postflop.