How does this look?

[radek2166]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (8.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, MP1 calls $1.62 (All-In), <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (23.37 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 32.37 BB

[Entity]

The flop call is iffy, but the rest of it looks great.

Rob

[radek2166]

U'd fold that for 1 bet?

[Sent]

Hard to say about folding. This flop is pretty horrible for QQ, well any Ace high flop sucks for QQ. You were probably drawing to 2 outs on the flop. I would probably see the turn like you did though.

-Sent

[sluttysteve]

Either raise or fold the flop.

[illunious]

Fold the flop, I think this is an easy fold.

[Sent]

[ QUOTE ]
Either raise or fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you could call the flop and raise the turn perhaps.

-Sent

[Quercus]

I think a call could be justified on the flop given the number of actors and the likely size of the final pot. I wouldn't think you'd want to knock anyone out at this point because if your 2 outer hits, you want their money going in.

[Kopefire]

I have to confess to wanting to raise the flop and then fold the turn if nothing hits . ..

The A is scary, plus you have to be concerned about people holding something like JT or KJ. Why not get in a cheap bet to see who the players are going to be, and then get out if you don't get help? Bets are cheaper here than on the turn,after all.

[radek2166]

I got a two outter here. I am going for implied odds. I thnik If I raise here I am just going to be up agaainst better hands.

This way I figure they are going to come along for the ride for 1 bet. Anymore and I lose the ones behind me.

[AncientPC]

I'd raise on flop, call / fold on turn if I missed.

[frank_iii]

Considering the fact that you are not closing the betting on the flop and there's a very good chance of a raise behind you since there are so many players left to act, I think a fold is probably the smartest choice here. You'd hate to get stuck in the middle of a raising war.

Hope you won the hand.

[GrunchCan]

You have more than 2 outs. You also have a broadway draw, which will almost certianly take the pot, unless the board pairs again. The backdoor broadway draw is worth 1.5 outs, improving your hand by 75% to 3.5 outs.

[GrunchCan]

No, the pot is too big to let it go with a decent hand that is likely to be second best. You still have outs, and the implied odds are great. You can't let go on the flop, but you should try to keep it as cheap as possible until you improve. Even if you do improve, be wary of AA.

I think you played it just about right.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Either raise or fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you raise here? To gain information? For value? To protect your holding?

Unless it's to gain information, I completely disagree.

You aren't going to be able to protect your hand with a raise any more than that 1st bet would. The board is very scary; even complete fish will probably drop if they have nothing. If they didn't drop for 1 bet, they wont drop for 2 against this board.

Raising has no value, becasue you are almost certianly behind in the hand, and you are only going to be raised by a better hand.

Even if it is to gain information, I still disagree, but not completely. The leader's bet already gives you the information you need: he likes this flop. What kinds of hands could he have if he likes this flop? Ax, KK, QQ (unlikely), Jx (most likely?), KQ. Except for KQ, your in trouble. And KQ is somewhat unlikely, since there are only 2 more Qs in the deck.

I think this is a clear call.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
No, the pot is too big to let it go with a decent hand that is likely to be second best.

[/ QUOTE ]

More like fourth or fifth best.

Which is why you let it go

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if it is to gain information, I still disagree, but not completely. The leader's bet already gives you the information you need: he likes this flop. What kinds of hands could he have if he likes this flop? Ax, KK, QQ (unlikely), Jx (most likely?), KQ. Except for KQ, your in trouble. And KQ is somewhat unlikely, since there are only 2 more Qs in the deck.

I think this is a clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe so strongly that you're beaten, then this is a clear fold. You're not getting the proper odds to hit your set, especially considering the fact that you may face a raise behind you.

[v_sf]

Staying in the hand was probably the right move. He has 2-3.5 outs, depending on how you look at it, and that is something like 8 - 16%. Decent value on the money, isn't it (I'm a newbie, so I could be wrong)? And if he really wanted value, he could have raised; a raise has the added benefit of getting information.

[GrunchCan]

You're not getting the proper odds to hit your set

Don't forget about the backdoor broadway draw. He has 3.5 outs to improve - not 2 -, which requires 1-13.4 to call. The pot is laying 1-13.5, so he must call.

[GrunchCan]

It doesn't matter if your 2nd best, 10th best, or have no hand at all. If the pot is laying you better odds to call than your draw, you must not give up the hand. Folding is too tight, and gives up too much.

[Marquis]

The flop bet is to your immediate right so you should usually raise or fold and I don't see this hand as an exception to that rule. I'd fold it; nobody who has you beat already is going anywhere and I highly doubt you're ahead.

As far as having odds to just call, that backdoor straight is hardly worth 1.5 outs, it has no openendedness /images/graemlins/grin.gif to it. You have to hit two specific cards. I'd give it a zero, but you can give it half an out, tops. So for 2.5 outs you'd need the pot to give you 17-1 and you're only getting 13-1. The implied odds probably do make it close, IF you count that half an out.

[Warband]

The odds of spiking a king and ten is worth about 1/2 out. He has 2.5 outs.

T.

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not getting the proper odds to hit your set

Don't forget about the backdoor broadway draw. He has 3.5 outs to improve - not 2 -, which requires 1-13.4 to call. The pot is laying 1-13.5, so he must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That backdoor draw could very well lead to a split pot so I would not value it so highly. And considering that lots of people will play QJ, QT, KQ, AQ, one or more of your Q outs may be counterfeited, too.

What do you plan on doing if you call, are lucky enough to have it not raised behind you, and then get a blank on the turn?

What do you do if you call and then it's raised behind you?

I still think this is a fold.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not getting the proper odds to hit your set

Don't forget about the backdoor broadway draw. He has 3.5 outs to improve - not 2 -, which requires 1-13.4 to call. The pot is laying 1-13.5, so he must call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the backdoor broadway draw here is worth 1.5 outs here, as he needs exactly two cards to complete it, and if he does complete, it's on a paired board.

Being generous, I'd say he has 2.5 outs, and needs at least 4 to make this call. I hate folding hands like this, and I might call as well, but I wouldn't be justified in doing so -- it'd probably be an emotional decision rather than justified by odds. I need to get an extra 5BB if it isn't raised behind me, which I can't guarantee. That's a lot to ask of implied odds, though definitely possible with a board like this.

The rest of the hand is routine.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

What do you plan on doing if [snip]...

Pot odds and pot equity will tell me what to do in these situations. But the key to using pot odds in borderline situations is accurately estimating your outs. Your right about the split pot, and I hadn't considered that. It devalues the backdoor a little bit, and that's probably all thats needed to turn a call in to a fold in this case.

[radek2166]

I am not raiseing this pot. If I raise this pot I think all thats going to come along are aces and jacks.

I think It will be folded around to the guy that raised if i raise.

[GrunchCan]

so, what were the results?

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
so, what were the results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be shocked if his full house Q full of J did not win that pot.

[GrunchCan]

I'm actually more interested inwhat his opponents had.

[radek2166]

Im at work right now. i will post the results when I get home.

[radek2166]

Final Pot: 32.37 BB

<font color="PURPLE">
MP1 has Kc Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has Qc Qs (full house, queens full of jacks).
CO has Kd Tc (straight, ace high).
Button has Ac Qh (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 32.37 BB. </font>