A coule hands from last night. Party 2/4.

[Eihli]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

I've got probably 8 good outs and will be able to get 2 more bets in on the river if I hit, that gives me odds to call right?



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (18.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font>
I didn't want to fold anyone with a smaller spade out and I didn't want to get 3bet by the A so I figured just calling down was right.

[bdk3clash]

In hand 1, I think I fold the turn because your overcard outs are pretty discountable, there's no guarantee you're not chopping a wheel, and even if your outs are good, a 2 or an A on the river could be a pretty scary card for your opponent and kill your implied odds (he checks, you bet, he folds; he checks, you bet, he calls; or he bets, you raise, he folds.)

Hand 2 I bet out on the turn and then play poker. I'm kooky like that.

[JinX11]

Hand 1: Maybe 8 outs - all of your outs are tainted, though (AT, A5, A4, JT, 67 are potential holdings where your out is no good). Don't know if I could raise the river regardless of what hits (one pair and wrong end of the straight is not worth the river raise, imo), so I wouldnt count 2 BB on the river if you hit.

I may have even folded the flop or turn and chose not to chase here. I don't feel I can be aggressive on an expensive street here, so I'm not the biggest fan of the play here.

Hand #2 - I like your play here. If he's got the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so be it. Is this maybe a spot to raise the turn and fold to a three-bet? If it's a Friday night on Party, I might have to consider unless my opponent plays a good game....

[devinthedude]

Hand 1 - I think I fold the turn on this one also. The call is about even money on the turn if all 8 of your outs are clean, but I dont see how you can think that they are. You only invested 2BB's into this pot, fold and on to the next one.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
and fold to a three-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kidding?

[joker122]

Hand 1: You can raise this flop and take a free card on the turn - with position this play works ~80% of the time. The few times I don't bet or raise the flop after raising preflop is when I have a really good read that I'm beat or the board is so unfavorable that I fold or just barely have odds to look at the turn and call. On the turn I'd also call although I don't think you have 8 full outs here - since reading SSH I don't count overcards as full outs, it just doesn't make sense to. But I most likely wouldn't be in this situation of facing a turn bet because I would have raised the flop.

Hand 2: I like your line here. I think his hands can be narrowed down to AsAx, QQ, JsJx, or AsKx. Interestingly, there are 12 total combinations of these hands and you lose to exactly half of them - therefore just calling is perfect, especially considering the button is still in who you almost definately have beat.

[MEbenhoe]

Some thoughts people haven't brought up.

Hand 1: A play you could make here is to raise the flop. It's a cheaper street, why not find out exactly where your opponent is at and possibly buy yourself a free pass to the river? The free card play doesn't just work on flush and straight draws.

Edit: Damn Joker122 beat me to this point

Hand 2: Some people might disagree with me, but I don't like the cap bet pre-flop. If you're lucky you'll get one player out of the hand, but you're guaranteed to have at least 4 seeing the flop even with your cap bet, plus with the cap you're pretty much defining your hand for the whole table. By simply calling you allow your hand to have a little more deception, and can play the following streets very differently because of this. Often you'll be able to get in a good check-raise on the flop or turn, and if you hit your 3rd King on the flop you have a huge pot that you can jam up and get a big payoff from. I know this doesn't pertain to the play you were questioning, but I felt it was worth pointing out anyways.

Considering the way you played the hand your turn and river play are fine. You're gonna be pretty attached to this hand and there is a decent chance you're beat so at least limiting the bleeding if you are beat by checking and calling is a fine play.

[bdk3clash]

I seriously doubt that the postflop equity you gain by "disguising your hand" and giving yourself some postflop flexibility or whatever with KK is worth the percentage of the 4 SBs you're forgoing preflop by not capping. If this was heads up, maybe we could talk, but with 4 opponents I don't think not capping is a valid option. You're just giving up too much preflop equity to dick around.

They're not automatically putting you on AA/KK because you capped preflop. They're probably not putting you on much of anything, honestly.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt that the postflop equity you gain by "disguising your hand" and giving yourself some postflop flexibility or whatever with KK is worth the percentage of the 4 SBs you're forgoing preflop by not capping. If this was heads up, maybe we could talk, but with 4 opponents I don't think not capping is a valid option. You're just giving up too much preflop equity to dick around.


[/ QUOTE ]

If played right you can easily gain 2 or more BB by playing your hand different from the ordinary ram and jam the pot all the way because you have KK mentality. To believe that not capping isn't even a valid option is mistaken.

[bdk3clash]

It's an option, and it's +EV, I just think capping is more +EV. I think you're overestimating how much capping preflop will kill the postflop action you get, but it's just a hunch.

Didn't mean to come off harsh or anything.

[Eihli]

I'm with bd3k on this one. Getting 4 more small bets in preflop when I'm probably a big favorite will get me more EV than just calling. Maybe there are some people who could get more in postflop, but I don't trust my postflop play enough to risk all those bets preflop.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there are some people who could get more in postflop, but I don't trust my postflop play enough to risk all those bets preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you on this statement. I think if you don't trust your postflop play enough yet then this isn't the play for you, and I would cap. However, if you have a good edge over your opponents in postflop I think the call here is a good option. Also, there is the factor that I don't believe you should use either play every time. So along with how good your postflop play is factor in how loose-tight and passive-aggressive the table is playing and also the fact that you want to mix up your play a little and you'll come up with the proper option for your play for your table in that exact hand.

[JinX11]

Was not kidding, but now maybe feeling a bit silly by my suggestion (what's new?). My rationale is that:

1) by going to showdown, I'm going to have to put in two more BB, unless he becomes a fuzzy bunny and checks on the river,
2) I can put in those two bets there on the turn and, if I am right, maybe get him calling me down with the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif and earn an extra BB (maybe he folds and I lose a BB, too, I suppose),
3) ultimately, I don't expect to be re-raised by him having anything less than the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. For all he knows, I have it, if he doesn't. If I am three-bet, I think I feel comfortable letting it go and I'm really no worse off than I had called it down the whole way.

Is this bad thinking?

[Eihli]

I can get the extra big bet from the button by keeping him in and see a showdown for the same price.