how 2+2 turns losers into winners: KJs post

[Peter Harris]

Greetings. Apologies for my absence recently, my partner has been seriously unwell. Managed to get 1 hour in today, first time in a week.

This hand came up and it aroused my statistical interest. Despite 2+2 (and undoubtedly SSHE) turning my KJs from a -.58BB/hand to a +1BB/hand (small sample disclaimer), i sometimes feel uncomfortable playing the hand. Comments on the hand below, please!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (15.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 18.75 BB, between CO, Button and Hero.</font>

I will post results and comments later on. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Pete Harris

[sluttysteve]

Not _too_ sure about the preflop raise at UTG+1.

I would've raised the turn, but I guess it looks like he had AA or AK.

[Brian]

Hi Peter,

Limping with KJs in UTG+1 at a 9-handed table is a fine play. One less person at the table or one better position, and I'd say you should open-raise, but don't let anyone berate you for just limping, especially if it is outside of your comfort zone.

I would bet the Turn. I think that you played the rest of the hand well, though.

-Brian

[Piiop]

I think both raising and limping are fine. I vary my play with KJs in EP depending on table conditions.

I think you played the hand fine. To bet the turn, I would have to put the button on either AA or AhQh. I think it's much more likely he has AK. It's unlikely anything but those hands would 3-bet preflop and 3-bet the flop.

[DrBob]

[ QUOTE ]
To bet the turn, I would have to put the button on either AA or AhQh. I think it's much more likely he has AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you see 3 kings, on the turn, I don't think this is the case. There are 4AK hands using the missing king, but this is compared with 4AQs hands and 6AA hands he might have. If you can eliminate all the AQs hands except AQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif based on the flop play, it's still 7-4 against AK.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you see 3 kings, on the turn, I don't think this is the case. There are 4AK hands using the missing king, but this is compared with 4AQs hands and 6AA hands he might have. If you can eliminate all the AQs hands except AQ based on the flop play, it's still 7-4 against AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, good point.

[mmbt0ne]

Judging by the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif on the river I highly doubt he had A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I'm at a loss for what he could hold that you beat though. AK, KQ, AA all beat you, and I have to assume that any under-pair would have folded, or at least not bet as hard.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Judging by the A on the river I highly doubt he had AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know what the river card is on the turn. You're also ahead of AA on the turn.

[Nottom]

I think A checkraise would have been a good idea on the turn with the other guy in the middle and a flush draw on the board.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
I think A checkraise would have been a good idea on the turn with the other guy in the middle and a flush draw on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I think A checkraise would have been a good idea on the turn with the other guy in the middle and a flush draw on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think CO is folding a flush draw fearing a boat here.. the only thing a check-raise protects you from is a gutshot, but i'm not sure that's going to be sticking around to this point often enough to be worth opening yourself up to a 3-bet which you would have to call looking for your 3-outer. am i missing something?

[Nottom]

I don't plan on getting rid of any deraws I just want to make it expensive for them, also you are probably ahead here more often than not as he is now more likely to have AA (or a multitude of other hands) than AK. If you were heads up, I can appreciate the check-call more but I think with the 3rd player involved, getting him to fold (or at least wrongly call with) a hand like 89 or 66 is worth the risk of a 3-bet.

[btspider]

maybe i'm narrowing down the button's hand too much. he 3-bets preflop and 3-bets hero's flop check-raise. i just don't see a weaker K doing this. QQ or JJ don't seem reasonable either without a read.

while AA will usually bet the turn, sometimes they don't. i think a turn bet gets $$ from the drawing CO as well as helps you narrow the Button's holding for 1 less big bet.

edit: pocket pairs would not have the proper odds to call a single bet on the turn.

[PokerBob]

I like it.

[Peter Harris]

Results first:

Hero Shows K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif (Three of a Kind, Kings)
CO Shows T /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Pair, K's and T's)
Button shows J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Pair, K's and J's)

Hero wins /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So here's what i think:

PF - table was tightish, i thought raising to limit the field would help rather than make it multiway.

Flop - c/r is good, in case MP2 or CO have 2 hearts. I folded out one. When button 3-bets, i reckon pocket pairs JJ-QQ, AK, AA all possible. Since i only beat JJ/QQ, i call the 3-bet.

Turn - this was BAD. I now beat AA BUT i think the best move was still a c/r. Button now appears aggro and will bet regardless, by check-raising i can force CO to call 2 cold, even though they have odds to draw IF they are on the flush draw (more suspicious due to their passive play). If CO 3-bets i will call rather than cap. Check-calling here was a bit weak, in my mind, but i think leading out would be unhelpful.

River: worst card in the deck, completes the flush draw and is an overcard. Check-calling is the move here.

I won, as Button had severe "pocket pride" with the JJ and it turns out CO was along for the ride, not a flush drawer (as i guessed when they checked the river).

Some people advocated leading the turn, but not checkraising. Is a checkraise okay here, or am i getting a bit of FPS?

Thanks for all the comments.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Trix]

Limp pre, CR turn, only AK beats you.

[Peter Harris]

yeah, i think a lot of people don't like the PFR, likely right.

The turn c/r i mentioned in my results post, it was baaad not to.

Thanks!
Pete H.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Limp pre, CR turn, only AK beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this hand because people keep saying CR the turn and I still don't see it.. so there must be a lesson here.

Can one of you guys elaborate on how you can rule out KQ, but you can't rule out JJ or QQ? The button is completely unknown. 3-betting PF with JJ is typical, but is 3-betting a flop check-raise typical for JJ? To 3-bet the flop with JJ and to be expected to bet the turn when the K pairs, button would have to be pretty aggressive.. probably in an aggressive enough category to 3-bet PF with KQ (or at least KQs), right?

[Nottom]

All I can really say is that in a big pot with multiway action, it is often correct to play a bit more aggressively than might seem correct at first.