Some questions about 10/20

[Guido]

About 3 weeks ago I tried 10/20 for the first time and dropped 84BB in less than 2 hours and went to 5/10 again. Yesterday I played my second session and won 25BB in 2 hours. Today I lost 77BB in just two hours and will probably drop down again.

It seems to me I'm doing something wrong compaired to 5/10. It seems they call any pair down, check-raise inside straight draws, check-raise overcards, call AK down ect ect. Should I let my hands go earlier? Seems like everytime I call down they have something. Any advice?

Maybe I'm just not good enough for 10/20 /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

[fsuplayer]

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It seems they call any pair down, check-raise inside straight draws, check-raise overcards, call AK down ect ect

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That sounds like they are handing out a lot of money on those tables with those moves, but you are just not staying there long enough to collect it.

Although I am quite sure that the 10/20 is trickier and tougher than the 5/10, they are still soft enough for a player like you to make a very good rate.

Just give it some more time. Maybe wait a little longer to jump up, so that you can spend some more time at the level and get out of the (very) short run.

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Should I let my hands go earlier? Seems like everytime I call down they have something. Any advice?

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It sounds like you should call down more in general, but you look like you are just running into alot of hands.

You are just running kinda shitty. Give it time and keep at it when you do try it again.
I had the same type experiance when i moved up to 5/10, now its much better.

I will be moving up to the 10/20 in a month or so, so please post some updates on your progress!

gl to you,

fsuplayer

[jujujaja34]

Guido,

Just something to keep in mind. After beating 5/10 short game for ~3bb/100 (after roughly 50,000) hands I made the jump to 10/20 6max for good in mid-May.

I had taken earlier shots at 10/20 with a short bankroll and had just gotten killed. I had slides of 100BB twice within the first week and a half I tried the game. I questioned whether I could beat the game yada yada yada. Eventually (in May) I decided that I "knew" I could beat 10/20 and would only play 10/20 regardless of my earlier slides. I just decided I would no longer "take shots". I would truly only have an idea if I could beat the game if I put in enough hands. Now, although my sample still isn't statistically significant enough to say I can truly beat the game, my win rate is good enough to give me a decent idea.

The 10/20 is a substantially different game from the 5/10. The longer you play, the more adjustments you will "instinctually" make and you're game will steadily adjust and improve. From your posts, I'm pretty sure you can beat this game over the long term. Just go in with an adequate bankroll and you'll be fine. Give it a fair shot.

jujujaja34

[chio]

you can do it, gueeds.

i just moved up a month ago, and it doens't feel like i'm doing anything that different. one thing is bankroll - if you have enough, then that's one less thing you're worried about, and will make you that much more confident when you play

try this next time you play 10-20
(1) play 1 table at a time
(2) change tables often (i usually move if the table is pretty tight, look for the same idiots that will play any ace any position, coldcall raises with K9o and call down with any pair like at 5-10, then stay at that table)
(3) using (1) and (2), watch the people at your table closely. it's a HUGE advantage to know whose turn c/r you can confidently fold to, who you want to call down with marginal holdings, etc. otherwise you'll just feel lost

a lot of the time at 5-10 i'd just sit down and play no matter who was at my table, cuz they all sucked, but 10-20 it's not unlikely that i'll change tables 5 times before i settle in to playing 2-3 tables

oh and my first few entries at 10-20 were something like

+500
+877
-950
+1100
-720
+1270

etc

[fnord_too]

I've played about 3-5k hands at 10/20 (don't have PT at work, so I'm not sure). The game seems very beatable, and I enjoy it more than the 5/10 game, but it is a lot more swingy in my limitted experience. I really enjoy action games like this, but they can have some brutal down turns. (One of my favorite games right now is shorthanded PLO with 100XBB buy in. Wow, crazy action but it can be devastating at times). I think if you have the bankroll for it, you will do well. I play some there, but for ring games I will keep most of my hands in 5/10 for now until I have at least a 600BB roll for the 10/20 game.

[Schneids]

Based on your stats you recently posted with regards to aggression I think if you keep those just as they were in 10/20 it will not work as well as 5/10. I think you'll have more success if you go more passive in some spots, so that way your pure aggression, when unleashed, has more meaning.

Like for instance, one time you open raise on the button and the BB defends. You miss, so the action goes check bet call; check check; bet, fold. Next time you open raise on the button and again you miss, this time the action goes check bet call; check bet fold. There's some give and take when it comes to pounding, and if you always pound, it's less likely the second and third times you miss you'll get them to sometimes fold. People are a little more observent and less willing to let the raw-pounders succeed unless even they sometimes show weakness.

[chio]

haha he said "raw pounders" haha

[TazQ]

I just made sure to play 3 tables when adjusting. At 3 tables I can get notes on everyone within 30 minutes. I'll have things like "raises UTG with 47s", "checkraises turn with king high" on every player. I think notes like these are a hell of a lot better than just having their VP$IP and PFR numbers. There are some people who I'll fold an overpair to when they cap the flop, and then there are people I'll call down with 2nd pair when they checkraise the turn. I'm sure you do that already, just make sure you're playing a limited amount of tables so you can get notes on every player quickly.

[Gazza]

I moved up permanently about 25K hands ago and things have gone very well so far (4.4BB/100 at 10-20 - I'm due a correction).
I'm not sure I have much to add to what has been said already but...
The fish in this game have more teeth but they are still fish so you should get the money in the end. Just be prepared for twice as big swings as in the 5-10.
Game selection is crucial as there are also a lot of good players around.
You have to mix your game up more than at 5-10.
Watch the opposition very carefully. There's an awful lot more BS going on and you got to work out who is likely to be telling the truth.
Sometimes I think players are just awful but they actually play pretty well once we take their VPIP of 55 and pfr of 25 out of the equation.
Cut your tables in half until you have experience in the game.
To be honest, I just don't understand how people can handle 4 tables of 10-20 6 max. And what is the point if it cuts your earnings down to 1BB/100 and you have to play on auto-pilot so can't learn much?
What hours do you keep? I'm also in Europe and find the best games are between 4am and 10am CET
And just commit to the game when you are ready. It;s a dangerous place to just dip your toes occasionally
I suggest a bankroll of 500BB to feel comfortable

Gazza

[Guido]

Thanks fsuplayer,

I will give it a good shot. I know it all has to do with swings but I found it a little diffecult to adjust. I got sucked out a lot to and that's all part of the game.

I will keep you up to date about my progress.

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

Thanks jujujaja34,

I will give it a good shot because from what I've seen, I can beat this game.

Guido

[Guido]

Chio,

My bankroll is about 600BB and it was a little more when I started. Thanks about your advice about playing only 1 table and changing tables. Maybe I will give it a try.

Guido

[jfresh]

from my experience, the 5/10 and 10/20 are extremely different games. almost all of my 5/10 tables play the same, rather passively - SB/BB give up easy if they don't hit the flop, etc. I had played 15/30 SH and 10/20 SH before dropping down into a smoother ride in 5/10. The $2000 swings in the higher level games gave me heart attacks; I'm not stepping back into them until I have a 500 BB bankroll at least.

Anyway, this is a good thread, so I want to hear some more 10/20 experiences/tips for the future when I move up.

[Guido]

Good point that I probably should vary my game a little more because my opponents are more observant. I know my aggression stats are high but you have to keep in mind that I play pretty tight. I don't see like 30% of the flop so that you have a big influence on my aggression factor.

Thanks for you advice,

Guido

[Guido]

TazQ,

I will pay even more attention to making notes. Maybe even drop a table or two.

Thanks,

Guido

P.S. How is the 7-8 table thing going? Or don't you do that anymore since you went to 10/20?

[Guido]

Hi Gazza,

Why would the swings be any bigger? If you mean in $ I understand but not in BB.

I will pay even more attention to table selection and my opponents.

I play in the morning until 12 A.M., most of the time 2 or 3 hours and I play 2 or 3 hours in the evening from 10 P.M until 12 or 1 P.M.

My BR is about 600BB, seems enough to me.

Thanks,

Guido

[fyodor]

While I am at work if I am playing 10/20 I only play one table. Later in the evening I will play 2. At 5/10 I play 2 or 3. If I am playing 10 player tables (which I do on occaison) I play 4.

I can see how easy it would be to play more now that I am used to it. Back when I first started I could not even follow 2 tables when I was only watching my friend play.

But no matter how many you are capable of, when moving to a new limit where there are at least *some* differences in style of opponents play, it only seems prudent to start with just one table.

[Guido]

Why change a winning team? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree with you that a sane person would drop a few tables... says enough about me I guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

[Gazza]

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Why would the swings be any bigger? If you mean in $ I understand but not in BB.


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The swings in my experience are much larger in BB terms. The games are more violent, you have to go to showdown a lot more because some of these guys could have absolutely anything. This increases the variance.
At the moment I am on an upswing which is far larger than anything I have experienced before. But I am a realist. That means that around the corner there are probably downswings larger than I've ever had before.
It is quite common for me to sit down at a table with 500, go down to about 300 after 2 mins, at which point I bump it up to 800,then be back down at 500 5 minutes later, but then finish the session about 400 or 500 up an hour later.
I found 5-10 a much smoother ride.
But all in all the game is a dream. I mean yesterday a guy with a vpip of 90.5 (!!) and a pfr of 32.4 sat down over me and won 1300 dollars in 80 hands and then left. He probably thinks he is God.
Move up when you are ready.
But bear in mind I play maximum of 2 tables and normally just 1 plus a less stressful MTT.
I am however expecting a new 21 inch monitor to turn up tomorrow so who knows in the future?

Gazza