Comparing the Old With the New

[sthief09]

I just think this is an interesting comparison between how I play now and how I've played in the past. I'm still screwing up a lot, and I can't seem to win online, but I'm confident that I'm a better player than I was before (at 2/4, 3/6, and 5/10 full tables). I'm posting this for entertainment purposes only, but I think I have enough hands to prove that I've tightened up and cut down on the aggression a lot:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Statistic New Old % Chance
Hands 6,421 16,224 (bet you thought this would be higher)
VP$IP 17.38 19.78 -12.13%
PFR 11.87 13.15 -9.73%
W$WSF 35.63 40.25 -11.48%
Won $ At SD 50.00 47.86 4.47%
Att. To Steal 29.79 36.24 -17.80%
Agression (w/o PF) 2.27 2.79 -18.64%
SD 16.3 18.02 -9.54%

</pre><hr />

EDIT: I knew something was wrong. I originally used my new stats as part of my old stats.

[Evan]

Just out of curiosity, what seperates "old" from "new"? Also, my AF is actually higher than either of yours, I'm shocked.

[sthief09]

when I started playing again about 3 weeks ago, after realizing that I wasn't very good. now I'm realizing that I don't really know how to play the game, so I'm screwing with my game a little.

[Evan]

Makes sense. If you're curious:

Hands: 13062
VP$IP: 14.45
PFR: 8.23
W$WSF: 35.82
Won $ At SD: 54.95
Att. To Steal: 19.13
Agression (w/o PF): 2.86
SD (BB/100): 15.9
BB/100: 3.34

[sthief09]

I changed my 'old' numbers because I originally included the new numbers in it. it shows the difference much more.

it's interesting that your W@SD is much higher than mind and your W$SF is much lower, but your AF is much higher. generally a higher win at showdown rate and lower win when saw flop raise would indicate that you're more passive. if you threw out the aggression factor it would make sense, because you limp less than me.

I really think the relationship between W$SF and W$SD is a good indicator of how aggressive or passive you are, and how well you're running.

[Evan]

I agree that W$SF and W$SD can tell you a lot about what kind of a player you are. Do you have any idea what "good" #'s for tehse stats are? I have no idea if mine are perfect or awfull.

[sthief09]

I don't think there's such thing as good or awful for them. just from looking at all the PT posts, it seems like 50/36 is average, while 48/39 seems to be aggro, and a product of raising a lot preflop and bulling your way through. I think if your W$SF is under 35, it probably means you're running badly.

I think GoT mentioned one time that he likes his W@SD to be in the high 50s, and I really buy into a lot of his philosophies, so it's something worth looking into.

[Evan]

It's kind of a hard stat to have a target for though, isn't it? It's a product of so many different factors, it seems like it's almost impossible to "aim" for a certain range as opposed to something like VPIP which is relatively easy to adjust.

[sthief09]

yeah each stat by itself is close to worthless, and even when used together it gives you nothing more than a rough idea of whether you're passive or aggerssive IMO

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=652103&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=

decent thread, and GoT says W@SD should be 65%

[Evan]

Thanks for the link, that is a cool thread. I don't see how 65% is even possible. Astro said he was just a hair over 50.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


decent thread, and GoT says W@SD should be 65%

[/ QUOTE ]

65%!??! That sounds waaay to high. All I've ever heard anyone say on here is mid 50s is good.

also, my W$SF is less than 35%, and im doing quite well over my last 25K hands, so i dont think that alone is a good indicator of how you are running

[sthief09]

that's what I like about GoT. he has different opinions than everyone else. I feel like most of us are just trained to regugitate (sp?) the gospel of Ed and Clarkmeister, while he actually thinks for himself.

[Nate tha' Great]

In theory you should be playing more aggressively postflop if you are playing more selectively preflop.

In the long run, I think you'd like to see *either* your W%WSF or your W%SD be a little higher; it is too early to tell right now since both of those stats can be pretty streaky and your sample size is ... INSUFFICIENT. Players like astroglide and I tend to have somewhat lower W$SD but we'll win quite a lot of hands; GoT has a different style of play and takes the lion's share of his showdowns but probably misses some opportunities to take a pot now and then. Both approaches can be effective; my guess is that the astro/Nate style is somewhat better suited to your strengths as a player but I don't know.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
regugitate (sp?)

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there's an "r" in there somewhere. I agree that we (by we I mean I) don't always put in the critical thinking that some topics require when the answers appear to be handed to us. I haven't read that many of GOT's posts, but I'd like to. Do you have any other links to particularly good threads?

[sthief09]

not offhand, but when I first started posting here, I went through a few prominent posters (I think Tosh, Joe Tall, Nate tha Great, and maybe a couple more) that registered in 2003 to see how they progressed. I basically became a GoT stalker for a while because he moved up so fast to 5/10, then through the IRC (I think that was the arconym) he got up to 15/30 in a hurry, and basically never looked back. there's also some interesting Miller vs. GoT stuff somewhere.

[Evan]

waht's IRC?

[sthief09]

it's OIC, not IRC like I said first... I'll look in the archives but I need sleep. I'll PM you tomorrow if I can't find it tonight

[Evan]

Thanks, good nite.

[sthief09]

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=inet&amp;Number=392370&amp;Forum=, All_Forums,&amp;Words=OIC&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=3 92336&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=2926&amp;daterang e=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bo dyprev=#Post392370

[Evan]

Awesome. Thanks a lot.

[PraetorianAZ]

My long term averages (50000+ hands at 2/4):

W$WSF 26%
W$SD 53% (fold to river bet 37%)

That's with VP$IP of 15%, raising 8% and aggr of 1.44.

What are you doing to win over 30% of your flops? Betting/raising every scare card?

[Evan]

Not every card, but both Josh and myself do quiet a bit over betting/raising (see out aggression factors).

[Monty Cantsin]

Here's another great GoT thread: No More Crying Calls (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=560235&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1).

This thread helps to explain why his W$SD is so high.

/mc

[Talex]

That thread is a must read, thanks for pointing us to it Monty.

-Tim

[MaxPower]

I think this post is just a ruse to lure out SAMPLE SIZE MAN.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if your W$SF is under 35, it probably means you're running badly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agh! Am I doing something seriously wrong?

W$SF

.5/1: 26.28
1/2: 26.49
2/4: 29.16

My winrate seems fine at every level... except for 2/4! What gives?

[MAxx]

65%, wuh?

that sounds crazy high. that cant be right.

how did zeejusin and get that screenprint of his pt into the thread?

[joker122]

There's this cycle I have. I think I'm good, and then about a month later I look back and realize I was terrible. Repeat.

[Evan]

If you want to put an image into a post, put it on a webpage and then put the link in the box that pops up when you click "image"

[JinX11]

In no month have I ever had a W$SF &gt;= 35%. Consistently around 33%, even in my best months.

Boy, that would be fantastic if I have been running bad.

[Evan]

I wouldn't take everything in this thread as gospel (or even necessarily logical). These are just some ideas about relationships between different stats and what they can tell you about your playing style. Also, higher stats are not necessarily better. Josh's "new" W$SD is about 10% lower than mine, but he is definitely a much better player than me.

[sthief09]

those 2 stats are really unimportant

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Hands 6,421 16,224 (bet you thought this would be higher)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you only spent as much time playing as your did posting... /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

[sthief09]

I don't like playing online, although I do have 20 or 30k other hands in my DB.

[MAxx]

i actually suspected your online handcount would be in around that ball park, based on info from prior posts. I just saw an opportunity to take a jab at you.

EDIT: and I don't have but maybe 25 to 30k hands in my PT... so this was purely giving you a hard time.