hellmuth bluff 77 vs Tony D in 2003 WSOP anyone have video of it?

[NLfool]

ok I can basically remember almost every hand I've watched or played in in this bluff I say Hellmuth had 77 he says K9. we've got a crazy bet so he won't accept it unless there's video proof or hellmuth writes it in his hand of the week.

[miajag81]

Hellmuth had 77, Tony D had JT. Flop KJx, turn J. Tony checks, Phil bets $7K, Tony check-raises to $15K, Phil re-raises to $30K, Tony folds.

[Daliman]

not that this helps, but you're right. Hellmuth had 77. One of the more odd successful bluffs i've seen, given that when Tony D initially raised, Phil Hellmuth jumped out of his chair, bemoaning his fate, then finally "getting it together" to play his hand. Yeah, this could be histrionics on his part, and I'm no Hellmuthian scholar, but this doesn't seem like the way he has ever acted when he has a big hand.

[Paul Phillips]

As the story was told by ESPN, hellmuth had 77 and tony had JT. However, I am almost sure they faked this hand, as they did with several others (http://tinyurl.com/5hk9y).

[miajag81]

Hi Paul,

What makes you say that about that particular hand? Did you actually witness it or do you just find it unbelievable that Tony D would actually lay his trips down? Just curious,

Jordan

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
As the story was told by ESPN, hellmuth had 77 and tony had JT. However, I am almost sure they faked this hand, as they did with several others (http://tinyurl.com/5hk9y).

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anybody remember (or even bettter, can you check) if this hand was on the TV table?

I'd be immediately suspicious that it was faked if it wasn't. When I saw it for the first time, I thought it was a terrible fold of the trip Jacks.

[miajag81]

I'm almost positive it was at the TV table - the one where Hellmuth and Grizzle were going back and forth the whole time.

[aLOWdAkING]

Yes, I have the video footage of the 2003 WSOP of Day 2, i believe, when that happened.

EMail me at alowdaking@gmail.com

[Bobby Digital]

Yes, it was definitely at a TV table.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
As the story was told by ESPN, hellmuth had 77 and tony had JT. However, I am almost sure they faked this hand, as they did with several others (http://tinyurl.com/5hk9y).

[/ QUOTE ]

That is very interesting. I wonder if anyone who was at the table when that hand took place is here to comment.

Regarding the Hellmuth 77 hand, it does seem very far-fetched that Tony G. would fold trip Jacks in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm almost positive it was at the TV table - the one where Hellmuth and Grizzle were going back and forth the whole time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It definitely wasn't at that table. I believe it was on day 1.

[ArchAngel71857]

Heh heh. Hellmuthian Scholar.


nice.

-AA

[miajag81]

There is no way it was on Day 1, Hellmuth had over $70K at the start of the hand and Tony D more than 100K IIRC. I am almost positive it was at the featured TV table, as other people have confirmed.

[Paul Phillips]

[ QUOTE ]
I am almost positive it was at the featured TV table, as other people have confirmed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember whether it was at the TV table (I haven't seen anyone "confirm" this with much authority) but I do know I came away from the hand convinced they'd faked it. There is way too much supporting evidence:

* the improbability of the laydown
* the improbability of the laydown FROM THAT PLAYER
* the improbability of the turn re-raise
* the improbability of the turn re-raise FROM THAT PLAYER
* tony's body language when he folded
* the fact that we know they faked other hands
* the fact that we know they faked other hands SOMETIMES
EVEN WHEN THE CARDS WERE FLIPPED UP! (*)

I've played many many hours with both those guys -- in fact they were both at my table for hours on day three of the 2001 WSOP when I experienced my highlight-reel moment of having aces cracked on back-to-back hands.

Nothing about the hand smells right. I do wish I had the episode on tape so I could analyze it more closely, but the whole thing screams to give ESPN the no-benefit of the doubt. I recall they showed tony look back at a JT right before he mucked it but I had the feeling it was actually spliced in footage from another hand.

(*) The cards shown on TV when scotty nguyen busted jonathan kaplan were NOT their actual hands. Jonathan wrote about this (http://tinyurl.com/46uln) and howard lederer confirmed it (http://tinyurl.com/3ollf). And that's in an ALL-IN situation! If they can get the cards wrong when they're face up on the table I promise they can get them wrong when they're folded on the turn.

[ThePimpulator]

Hasn't anyone asked Tony D? I'm sure he'd remember if he folded trip jacks. Or might he use these allegations as a chance to cover up a horrible fold and say it never happened even if it did?

[Rekwob]

you can see it fairly clearly if you pause at the right moment that he has JT, so unless ESPN edited it, he folded them

which is just crazy tbh

[72off]

The footage does seem to be spliced together from two different hands. The only time you see Tony D's hole cards is on the turn when he takes a look. The problem is (and those who have the video at hand can check, at about 36:50 of day 2) Tony has his hands folded together, then when he looks at his cards he's holding a stack of chips, then when it cuts back his hands are empty again. Now that's a chip trick.

The only possible way that ESPN didn't screw this up is if the whole sequence was heavily edited for time.

i.e. Tony looks at hole cards, [cut, Tony grabs some chips and goes into the tank], Tony looks back at his cards, [cut, Tony put chips down], Tony throws his hand away

It'd be a pretty big laydown if he did have JT, kind of an odd play by Hellmuth as well with 77.

[youngin20]

I have a VCD copy on my computer, PM me and i can tell you where to get it. (its not hard)

[Sponger15SB]

If this hand in fact didn't take place wouldn't Tony D want to say something about it?

I certainly wouldn't want to be known as "Phil Hellmuth's bitch" if it weren't true.

[Bobby Digital]

[ QUOTE ]
The footage does seem to be spliced together from two different hands. The only time you see Tony D's hole cards is on the turn when he takes a look. The problem is (and those who have the video at hand can check, at about 36:50 of day 2) Tony has his hands folded together, then when he looks at his cards he's holding a stack of chips, then when it cuts back his hands are empty again. Now that's a chip trick.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not only that but you can also see the dealer dealing a card in the background. You have to watch very closely but it is clear. The only explanation for this would be they cut to a shot at the beginning of the hand. Maybe this was because when Tony D rechecked his cards it wasnt in clear view of the camera.

I also can't quite make out the suit of the jack in Tony D's hole cards, but it looks like it might be the jack of spades. This wouldn't make much sense because the jack of spades came up on the flop.

[tpir90036]

i think you are wrong because later in that episode tony d and grizzle get involved in a hand together at the end of the break and phil stays at the table to watch. i think this all happens in the same episode.

[Paul Phillips]

The footage is CLEARLY spliced together. Examine the evidence for yourself. (http://www.improving.org/paulp/poker/tonyd-vs-hellmuth/index.html) As to whether that splicing means that it didn't happen, I guess that's for everyone to decide on their own. It's awfully hard to prove a negative.

[Bobby Digital]

Any evidence as to whether or not he had those chips when first receiving his hole cards? If he did not that would prove it beyond any doubt.

[Nilzor]

I have the footage on .mpeg, but it's near to impossible to tell if it's spade or clubs, but I think it's clubs. The ten is definitely a heart anyway.

You're right about the dealer dealing, though. So the question is, is this footage from the same hand or a completely different situation.

I started looking at the stacks of chips. First I thought the red-ish stack was missing from the pocket cam, I think it's present in the upper right corner of the shot. I wasn't at Binion's, so I don't know the exact look of the chips, but I'd suppose the stack I've marked C could be the same in picture two and three. Also, stack A in shot three is probably the one he held in his hand in shot one. I'm actually starting to believe he folded JT here.

There is of course a THIRD option... That BOTH the scene of Tony D checking his cards AND betting, is cut into the K4JJ board-hand... /images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess we'll never find out.. or?

Shot 1:
http://nql.idi.ntnu.no/~diverse/poker/1.jpg

Shot 2:
http://nql.idi.ntnu.no/~diverse/poker/2.jpg

Shot 3:
http://nql.idi.ntnu.no/~diverse/poker/3.jpg
The blue dot in pic 2 would be close to where the camera was.

What do you say?

[Nilzor]

I cut out the segment of interest from the episode, by the way, so you can now all download the scene from here (http://nql.idi.ntnu.no/~diverse/poker/helmuth_tonyd.avi). Had to recompress to Divx 5.11, so might be a slight quality loss, but I couldn't notice it.

(36MB, Uploading as we speak, should be available at 18:45 CET)

[Bobby Digital]

Is it me or is C now much smaller in the last picture?

[Nilzor]

You might be on to something there