Raise the flop or valid slowplay

[daveymck]

Same table as previous laggy freind is around.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 <font color="purple">(lag)</font> 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 <font color="purple">(lag)</font> calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, lag calls, CO calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, lag folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (17 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19 BB, between SB and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (19 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has Qs As (two pair, aces and fours).
Hero has Ad Ah (full house, aces full of fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 19 BB. </font>

[lil']

Oh yeah, raising this flop would be criminal. You hope LAG raises it.
I'm almost tempted to call the turn as well, as it looks like SB has a nice ace he wants to keep betting with.

[nepenthe]

Valid slowplay.

[Piiop]

Interesting. Since he capped preflop, he should have KK/QQ/JJ, or AK maaybe AQ. On the flop we now know where 3 A's are, so it's not probable that he has another. So if he's betting KK/QQ/JJ then we should let him continue bluffing so he doesn't fold. But if he does have the unlikely AK, then he should 3-bet if we raise.

I think that you should either raise the flop, or go for overcalls again on the turn.

I don't think that there's any reason to force the other players 2 call two when your hand improved to the 2nd nuts. Let them call and try to hit flush/str8/2 outers with a pair. And let the SB continue to bet out his beaten hand. If you raise the turn after calling the flop, you gain 1 SB and fold out most other hands. If you call the flop and turn for overcalls, you gain 1.5 BB's plus any extra on the river.

Or you could raise the flop. The other players in the hand are much more likely to call two cold on the cheap street than on the turn. If they have a draw they'll also call the turn hoping to hit on the river. And if the SB has the unlikely AK/AQ he should reraise. If you raise the flop and get callers, we'll assume they'll also call the turn. You make 2 BB's plus any extra if they hit/call the river.

[onegymrat]

Without a doubt, slowplay this monster. You may have lost some income on the turn also.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm almost tempted to call the turn as well, as it looks like SB has a nice ace he wants to keep betting with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also tempted to call the turn as well. However, don't you think if the SB has the unlikely Ace that he would bet/3-bet with it if you raised? I would think that would be a good reason to raise the flop instead of call.

I think the reason to slowplay and go for overcalls is because we're putting him on KK/QQ/JJ and want him to keep betting even though he's drawing dead.

[TripleH68]

Well done.

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that would be a good reason to raise the flop instead of call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't see a better situation for which hero to slowplay. All the aces are out. Clearly, SB has one of them. The other players KNOW that they are behind to an ace, why reassure their thought. The other players are looking to hit their miracle card(s). Raising either flop or turn will just drive away money. If there were only one opponent after hero, raising is fine, but there are two. Let them hit their longshot.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]

I would think that would be a good reason to raise the flop instead of call.


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I can't see a better situation for which hero to slowplay. All the aces are out. Clearly, SB has one of them. The other players KNOW that they are behind to an ace, why reassure their thought. The other players are looking to hit their miracle card(s). Raising either flop or turn will just drive away money. If there were only one opponent after hero, raising is fine, but there are two. Let them hit their longshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I have already agreed with slowplaying in two posts. I was responding to lil''s post where he said that SB probably has an Ace he wants to keep betting with. My point that if SB really does have an Ace, he would probably raise/reraise so you don't have a need to slowplay.

[lil']

You are right that we don't want to scare him off KK or QQ as well. I was guessing A-K because he bet the flop and turn into multiple opponents, which often does not happen at low limits unless you have the ace.

In this hand, however, we are hoping stupid LAG raises for us, so we can get more money in the pot while disguising the strength of our hand.

[sthief09]

If the pot was half the size (you raised and everyone called), I'd say pop it.

[onegymrat]

Sorry, I just got really excited about the hand. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that we don't want to scare him off KK or QQ as well. I was guessing A-K because he bet the flop and turn into multiple opponents, which often does not happen at low limits unless you have the ace.

In this hand, however, we are hoping stupid LAG raises for us, so we can get more money in the pot while disguising the strength of our hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the plan on the flop, there wasnt a valid draw on the board and I expected a raise from behind.

The turn I think is more the interesting part, I had it in mind I was raising whatever card came, I probably didnt pause to think enough that I now had in essence the nuts and that I wanted to try and keep the other two in, although there is no guarentee either would have called.

[Befolder]

Am I the only one that's going to give a dissenting opinion. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif By looking at the flop it certainly is a slow play, but I think what most are forgetting is the size of the pot.

The golden rule is never slow play when the pot is large. This one certainly is with 5 players capping preflop.

This should not be slow played based on the pot size. It turned out well on 4th street, but you could not have known what card falls. If it's a three, you could be beaten right there.

Plus, the size of the pot will encourage players to cold call several bets because they're odds say to chase. SSH says all this.

Befolder

[onegymrat]

Hi B,

You have valid points, however...
[ QUOTE ]
The golden rule is never slow play when the pot is large. This one certainly is with 5 players capping preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]True, but you have top set on a rainbow board with two cards to fill up. If the flop had cards from the other end, yes, but not here. If they hit their gutshot with a trey, bravo to them.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, the size of the pot will encourage players to cold call several bets because they're odds say to chase. SSH says all this.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, but those who play a capped flop probably doesn't have deuces or treys in their hand. Besides, they haven't read Ed's book, or any other book for that matter.

[Befolder]

Yes, normal players wouldn't have the cards to connect up, but I could see any lag or maniac playing 5-7s or even just 5-7 for that many bets and certainly it would be right for them to see the turn at least given pot odds. This is small stakes and people play that trash for several bets. Due to the number of people in the hand. It's not inconceivable that one of them could have something like that.

There's no reason to give them a chance to burn you especially when they're likley to call whatever is put in there on the flop.

With less players and a smaller pot, it would be wrong not to slow play, but I still contend that in this instance you should not.

Congratulations on winning the big pot though. That always feels great. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Befolder