Lucky Chances in San Francisco

[aggie]

I'll be in Colma Friday night and Saturday afternoon for some poker. Any NLHE going on there? How bout the nearby area. What's the highest limit gamt they will be spreading?Any feedback you can give would be greatly appreciated!

[bigfishead]

Yes they have NL...some small blinds stuff and 10-10-20 blinds $1000 min buy-in. Your going to an area that was playing NL poker over 20yrs ago. Depending on the game your either in for an awakening or a great day of poker. Most of the "new breed" NL players cannot survive against many of the more experienced bay area players.

I havent played there consistently in 2 yrs but I recently spoke to a friend and he stated they have a number of "Max buy-in" NL games, in the lower range.

[haakee]

NLHE:
$1000 min buyin 10-10-20 blinds. Doesn't always go.
$300 min buyin 5-5 blinds.
$40 min, $100 max buyin 1-1-2 blinds.

Limit HE:
20-40,9-18,6-12,3-6. Sometimes there's a signup board for 40-80, but it's rare that they can get one going.

Omaha H/L:
4-8 with a half or full kill, I believe.

And some low-limit stud (2-4 only?)

[bigfishead]

10-10-20 doesnt always go? Wow...used to be going by 10am on fridays and up to 3 games. Just only 2 yrs ago.

Omaha is 4/8 1/2 kill as I recall and its an action packed game in the evenings. 6-12 and 20-40 the best games in my opinion. The 9-18 was good when they first started spreading it but then it really tightened up. I used to play there 40-70 hrs a week...or was that a session? I cant remember. /images/graemlins/cool.gif But again that was a while ago so take it with a grain of salt.

[scrub]

The 5/5 only runs sunday nights.

scrub

[TomCollins]

This sucks. This is like forcing people to go from jumping into the baby pool to a 10m platform. I'll see any of you there a week from Sunday.

[TJSWAN]

aggie,

The 10-10-20 should be going Friday. Last time I went there about a month ago on a Friday night the lists were running 30 to 40 people long for the regular games and the 1-1-2 no limit.

Artichoke Joe's hasn't been spreading any NL that I know of but the lists are A LOT shorter and the games are good. That's where I've been going more lately.


Tim

[scrub]

There are a bunch of casinos in the area.

I've been told (although I didn't get over there while I was in town this summer), that there is a 5/5 game that runs much more often in Hayward.

Incidentally, the baby NL structure at Lucky Chances is even dumber than the baby NL structure at Foxwoods.

scrub

[TomCollins]

The Foxwoods structure isn't even THAT bad. I found it very profitable.

[scrub]

I didn't say a game populated with that many retards with that structure wouldn't be profitable.

It's just boring and less profitable than baby NL games with better structures in NY and AC.

scrub

[bigfishead]

what dont you like about this structure they speak of for Lucky chances? is it the 3-blinds? 1 of which is on the button?

3 blind structures in NL are found more often in areas where NL is NOT new but very "old hat" in fact. California and many of the old NL LV games were 3 blind structures 25 yrs ago. This is a far superior structure than the normal 2 blinds. The reason for blinds is to create some action, not so every one can wait till they have the nuts to put a chip in the pot.

[scrub]

It's the huge time collection and the 25 big blind buyin cap that are stupid.

scrub

[TomCollins]

25BB NL should just be called limit.

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the huge time collection and the 25 big blind buyin cap that are stupid.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you seem to not be too awfully literate enough to use punctuation whatsoever, which would clarify exactly what you mean I will assume some.

First...read again...10-10-20 (not 25) nothing wrong there..

Buy-in cap? Only in the smaller games as I understand such as the 1-1-2. This is an EXCELLENT idea. Probably the wisest idea anywhere. You have no clue why?...The 1-1-2 nl is for the more "poker is my entertainment" player. It allows them to last longer and not get run over too fast. Natuarlly this also provides for a drop for the house too. Alas all the new internet "NL know it alls" would too get crushed by the very very experienced NL players in the Bay area. Then there would be no game. NL poker has gone on in the SF, Bay Area for well over 50 yrs. If they opened the door to unlimited buy-ins in the baby blinds games it would be terrible for poker in the area or any area that runs them. Most casinos are clueless to NL. Not in the bay area.
California IS THE CAPITAL of poker. NOT LV!!!...Las Vegas is for the grinders to pick off the tourist pidgeons. But in California POKER ROOMS or CARD CLUBS as they are also described in phone books, survived as just that. CARD ROOMS..no slots, table games, video poker, etc for well over a century in California Legally. How would you like to jump in a 1-2 blinds NL game with your littel $2-300 buy-in and be faced with over $100k on the table? Do you think you could last long? Do you think you could win much? Not long, not often is my answer to you. Other clubs should take note.

second: $25 BB? well if it's too high for you then dont play...thats why they have smaller games.

Brutal rake? Do you see anywhere here where the rake was posted? What info is provided in this thread that says it's brutal? Northern California happens to be very very reasonable. Are you trying to compare the rake to a location thet has SLOTS, TABLE GAMES, SPORTS BOOKS, to attract all those dollars of yours? The most successful poker rooms inside casinos dont charge much rake because they want to keep you there. Why? So you and your wife/girlfriend/buddies etc, can go blow off on all the other gambling adventures available. All of which provide a very nice income. And so when people like TJ come and win a tournament there is a nice craps table to go lose it all on.

Or when "Pa" is playing $10-$25 PLO for 12 hrs..."Ma" can go play $5.00 slots.

Yet much of California rake is the same or slightly more than many of these "great casino" you talk about or compare to.

I wonder sir how much true poker time you have NOT on the internet. What do you base all your great opinion on?...I try to learn from the experience of others. Fortunately I have been around the best in the business and some of the crookedest(which taught me great ethics and how to protect your dumbass) in the business at different periods of my life. This has allowed me an chance to see a little broader view.

I hope this helps some to understand a little more about the business and why certain things are done. I suggest that most that work in the business would benefit greatly by spending some of their careers in the business in various California Cardrooms. Both North and South. Then y'all can come down to Tunica and learn a bit extra about hospitality and customer service. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

My vision of the best cardroom in the country? Hospitality, and comps/customer service like Horseshoe Tunica. Player protection, Game selection, table rules structures like Lucky Chances, Artichoke Joes, California Grand, Casino San Pablo, Garden City, Bay 101. Interestingly enough, 4 of the licenes of the above named cardrooms total well over 250yrs of poker experience.

ok off my soapbox.

[ceczar]

i'm sure there's a good reason for three blinds, but you clearly misread scrub's post. he was complaining about the 1-1-2 capped buyin game, with a cap equal too 25 times the total blinds, which is worse than a 1-2 $100 game with cap equal to 33 times the total blinds. i'm sure you can see his point, and you merely misread, but you kinda jumped all over him for no good reason.

i would be interested in hearing you explain more about the advantages of the three blind structure, and why it's better, and/or what are the tactical considerations.

[bigfishead]

As I understand it( I havent been to Lucky Chances since they started the baby NL) the cap buy-in is 100.00 and you cannot rebuy unless under 40. EXCELLENT for the "entertainment" or low limit players and the new tv viewers coming in to play. This is the kind of game the grows the business. And at these limits I am a firm believer we need to view it from this perspective. There is a huge growth going on in poker. This is not the first time. This is the first time it is being approached in a LONG TERM player base view point however. If there wasnt a cap on buy-ins on the baby blinds NL games, the players would go bust so fast and there would be no games. I think you understand.

As for the 3-blind structures, the benefits vary according to the limits. At 1-1-2 it is really just getting the Low level NL players used to the idea of 3 blinds. There is no realized benefit to the players as it can just as easily be considered similiar to the "button" drop so common in No. Cal. Even tho this is generally considered a time collection game, usually running in the area of $5-7 pr 1/2 hr per player. However as the blinds go up in the larger games, it is the basis for creating action. Just take a trip to Mississippi, and watch the Pot limit omaha (5-10 blinds) games with either a forced winner stradle $25 action starts to his left, or a mandatory $25 button stradle, SB acts first, games. They create action.

Without blinds you have everyone just waiting on the nuts.
When I started playing poker 25 yrs ago in Cal, all I can remember is 3 blinds structures, and easily 1/2 were NL.

But after you have dumped $100 bucks in blinds in a 5-5-10 game without playing a hand you can see how it would force you to either play or go broke.

[ceczar]

thanks for explaining. i think most agree that capped buyins are important for newbies to not bust out too fast or even to sit at the table at all. but there clearly is an inverse relationship between encouraging newer players by making it harder to go broke and the ability for the rest of us to make money from said tourists. a buyin of 33 times the total blinds already seems pretty low, and to go even further to 25x is annoying, which i'm sure is what scrub was alluding to.

but i think the question i have about the three blind structure is this: what are the practical effects of 5-5-10 as opposed to 10-10, which both have the same total blind money in the pot. i imagine it's not just the amount of money relative to the stacks but also how many players are already partially involved maybe?

[bigfishead]

I am not aware of 25x or 33x being the cap. As I alluded earlier my understanding is that the 1-1-2 game is a max 100 buy in. I see no problem with that. As for the rest of your comment in regard to "us making money". Do you think the casino is in business for "us" to make money?

As for your questions about structure you are partially correct in your thinking. And no it isnt about "relative stack sizes" in the larger games because the blinds are like soda pop money at the larger games like 10-10-25 and higher. More often than not in a full game with blinds this size there will be upwards of $80k on the table after a few hours of play.

The rest I would like to see some of the oldtimers elaborate on a bit.

[ceczar]

ok, i see what you missed.
1-1-2 blinds add up to $4, which is 1/25 of the buyin
1-2 blinds add up to $3, which is 1/33 of the buyin
party is 33x (or 50x time big, which doesn't translate to 3 blinds), which is generally considered as short-stacked as people will want to play. therefor, a 1-1-2 blind setup on a $100 buyin table is less suitable for play with nontrivial post-flop decisions, as the total blinds are more relative to 1-2 blinds on a $100 buyin table.

obviously the casino's don't want to make "us" money, but the original comment was why the 1-1-2 blinds sucked, presumably because it's harder to make money from fish in such a structure. you responded that capped games were necessary, but of course it's a question about the degree to which these games should be capped.

but it does have to relate to "relative stack sizes". ante structure is only meaningful relevant to stack sizes. you just finished explaining to us how the 3 blind structure encouraged action, but 5-5-10 wouldn't encourage more action than 10-20. my question is how does 5-5-10 relate to a flat structure like 10-10, which has the same amount of money on the table, which should stimulate the same amount of action, unless having a third player already involved in the action makes a significant difference.

[Sponger15SB]

I knew I was right about you being a dick.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[J.A.Sucker]

The third blind definately increases action vs 2 blinds. The third blind is on the button, and encourages more play from there. This actually generates more limped pots from all players, and makes the game play bigger. You get a guy killing it, too, and now you have a real good game.

FWIW, if you want to play NL in the Bay Area, play at Lucky Chances on Sunday nights, as others have indicated. It's 5-5 blinds, but it's 10 to go. The 10-10-20 game goes 2X a week, I think, and it's 40 to go. If you want something smaller, The Palace in Hayward (East Bay) is a small room that has a fun NL game. It's got blinds of 1-2-2, I think, but it's ALWAYS killed to 5, since you can kill it on the button. Sometimes every pot is double killed to 10. Money is very deep vs the blinds in this game. Plus, you see things that happen "only in Hayward," as they say...

[bigfishead]

coming from another young know it all I take it as a compliment that I got your panties in a bunch.

[ceczar]

thanks for explaining that for me sucker.