Attempt to Get This Forum Back On Track - QTo in the BB

[sthief09]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

<font color="red"> Check with the intention of check-raising a LP bettor, or folding to a bet and raise. </font>

Turn: (5.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

<font color="red"> Same plan as flop, minus the check-raise. Should I check-raise if there's just a bet to me? What if there's a bet and a call? </font>

River: (8.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

<font color="red"> Standard. </font>

Final Pot: 10.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.16 BB, between Hero and UTG.</font>

[Evan]

Looks a lot like sfer's post about JBB's hand from last week. Waht do you do if the flop gets checked through? How bout if the flop gets checked through and the turn is an over?

[IndieMatty]

I'm betting out this one because of all the draws and possible made hands out there. Thats just me.

[MoreWineII]

I think I'm with you here. I can't put my finger on exactly why though. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[IndieMatty]

Because theres nothing wrong with playing straightforward (I got a Queen look at me!!) poker when theres a board with tons of draws?

[Danenania]

I almost always bet out in situations like this because I have no idea where a bet will come from (if it comes at all). Should I be check-raising more?

[WarmonkEd]

I would've just bet it all the way down unless there was some LP lag.

and good on you for trying to get this forum back on track.

[MoreWineII]

I'm sure sthief had some reason to play it this way but for the life of me, I can't see it.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Check with the intention of check-raising a LP bettor, or folding to a bet and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this play when you have no reason to think you'll get an LP bet.

[jrobb83]

Bet the flop.

Bet the turn.

The pot is not that large.

[sthief09]

it's checking, waiting to see what happens. 3 things can happen: bet and 2+ calls and I call, bet and &lt;2 calls and I raise, or bet and raise and I fold. I think I can do this since I have a gut shot and overcalling isn't so dangerous.

[Evan]

I didn't notice the gutshot, that does make me like your play more.

[sthief09]

check to protect. if possible, I'd love to confront the field with 2 bets. if it fails, I have outs to a straight. if I had AQ and for some reason didn't raise preflop, I'd bet out.

[BottlesOf]

Meh. Bet the flop.

If there's a bet and a raise, and you fold, you could very well be folding the best hand. Don't put yourself in that spot, bet the flop.

[IndieMatty]

Isn't the risk of giving a free card not worth it? Honestly they'll be some douches who won't even bet there Q rag suited they played because this IS a scary board. Maybe I am biased, but I've been attempting to checkraise with top pair more in the blinds these days, and I'm very mixed with my results.

[Fnord]

QJrag 2 suited, 5 to the flop is an easy to board to check/raise. On a good day, I run the same line.

Also, if it gets checked around and a blank falls, then a turn bet into a small pot will do a great job protecting your hand.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
How bout if the flop gets checked through and the turn is an over?

[/ QUOTE ]

Answer this. And don't just say bet, what do you do if you bet and get raised?

[J.R.]

Since either an A or a King will give him 4 additional straight outs (and the second nut flush draw if its a club), he is calling.

[sthief09]

from last week

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $3. UTG posts a blind of $3. UTG+1 posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB calls, Hero folds, UTG folds.

River: (9.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 13.50 BB, between SB and UTG+1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG+1 (13.50 BB).</font>

[sthief09]

what's your opinion on my flop check?

[Evan]

I'm don't understand this play. Please teach me.

[sthief09]

just because I post a hand doesn't mean I think I played it well. I was just giving another example of myself doing it, but this time it failed.

[amerksmann22]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Check with the intention of check-raising a LP bettor, or folding to a bet and raise. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like your thinking here. If UTG bets MP1 &amp; 2 call and then CO raises.
You have to fold? Plus, folding here cannot be the correct play (Top pair plus runner runner striaght draw &amp; and runner runner 3rd nut flush draw).

Easy Spot for CO to raise a flush draw with the 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif in his hand. Now you have put yourself in a bad spot.

I think you need to lead out at this flop over time with a with your hand. It is definately strong enough to lead and way to weak a hand not to bet.

[thirddan]

I really don't like this...this is insanely weak tight...

with 7 people to the flop you are most likely against crap and your TPMK will be good here most of the time. You let this guy run you over...just because 5 people called the flop bet doesn't mean they have anything, can you explain this play or your reasoning?

[daveymck]

I think if there is a LP raiser then this becomes a valid play, as there is no raise I would take the iniative as I would assume (and probably a bad assumption) that the earlier positions are more likely to bet out as they should have stronger holdings (whether overcards or a smaller PP)

Your hand has a better chance of getting protected by betting out as the flush draw may raise and push people out between you and him.

I would rather fold the flop (with this many callers) than play the way you have as once everyone has called your hand becomes vunerable to a lot of cards that can hit with so many people in the hand. You probably have the best hand bet it and then adjust dependant on the action.

[Brian]

Ok, you were trying to go for a check-raise to thin the field. That didn't work, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't still check-raise unless you have a plan for the Turn, which you obviously didn't. I can't tell you how much I hate check-calling the Flop and Turn. Put some money in the pot, you certainly have more equity than most. You left some money on the table. And if UTG had KQ, don't tell me that you saved money, because you didn't, don't be results oriented. Oh, and can I have some CRACK? Bring the old icon back.

-Brian

[Brian]

I hate this hand too man. Don't pussy out just because some guy in early position leads the Flop and a few guys call. The guy who is leading the Flop will frequently have a worse hand than your pair of Aces with a 9 kicker. We're talking he'd bet any Ace, many players would bet a Queen here, and of course a Spade draw. What are you putting him on that you are chickening out to? ATo? Fold then, don't call. But of course, folding would be even weaker than calling, if that's possible, because calling is pretty damn weak. Unless you are setting something up for the Turn, but once again you weren't.

Are you afraid of the guys who are calling? They have literally just about any two cards, from weak draws such as 54o and KJo to absolute nothingness like 98d or J9 with one spade hoping for some sort of a runner.

Nigga please.

-Brian

[rjc199]

Who is posting this hand? THis isn't the sthief that I'm familiar with!

[dejableu]

Hi sthief,

I have been lurking here for a few weeks, but this is my first post. I was surprised by how you played these hands because I have seen you act as one of the frequent posters and usually your recommendations are much stronger.

In the first hand, in an unraised pot, you are quite possibly ahead of all four opponents. If, on the other hand, you are behind, your draws are legit. You not only have 4 outs for the inside straight, but you also have QJT of clubs, which, according to Ed Miller, gives you 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush and perhaps even another out for the backdoor shot at broadway. Even if you completely discount another Q or a T, you still have at least 6 outs (or a 25 percent likelihood of connecting). Your only concern is that you lose your flush outs to the A or K of clubs, which is why you need to tax someone with one lonely overcard.

For those reasons, I'm leading out with a bet. As you pointed out, a check-raise is futile unless a bet arrives from LP. I think if you play this one straight up, the prevalence of players raising for the "free card" gives you an excellent chance of getting raised from late position by a four-flush or perhaps someone with KT. Then you can three-bet to knock out whoever is left paying two cold, and if you get capped then you know where you stand. That would be my advice.

On the second hand, I agree with the others on your fold. It was way too weak. You were shown little or no resistance. There was no reason for you to assume that your kicker was no good. As of the flop, you were able to beat six out of 12 possible kickers to the A, and I think you should have proceeded as if you were in front. For more on that, see Clarkmeister's post on "5 things LL players should 'unlearn.'"

-----------------

5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.

All holdem literature admonishes new players to beware of kicker problems. For good reason. Its good to keep people away from the Ax hands that most new players love. But once you do see the flop with your big-little combo (Axs, or something like Kx from the BB), the pots are so big in these LL games that unless the Rock of Gibralter starts raising, you must proceed as if your top pair is the boss and play accordingly. Too many people will play middle pair aggressively, jam their flush draws, even raise with bottom pair and a gutshot, and too many fish will chase even the longest of shots. Punish them and see what happens on the river when the smoke clears. This doesn’t mean to blindly play til the "bitter end", but it does mean that you shouldn’t be so ready to assume that you aren’t in the lead. I get the impression that many new players would rather flop bottom pair than top pair/no kicker, and that’s simply wrong.

[tpir90036]

why did you hijack your own thread? i am looking at this thing in flat mode so now i can't even tell who is responding to what. in any event, i like the first hand just fine. the second one, not so much. i would have to bet one of these streets. half of the field posted and checked....i like my top pair here.

[sthief09]

I read in flat mode

[sthief09]

He had Q9o and MHIG

I agree with Brian. I have enough equity, with the gut shot, to check-raise the flop. I seem to have gone from overaggressive and fearless to weak-tight.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
For more on that, see Clarkmeister's post on "5 things LL players should 'unlearn.'"

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone have a link to this? I'd try to find it, but the guy has like 5 billion posts. I'm hoping someone has it marked as a favorite....

[sfer]

I bet this hand the whole way until I'm given a reason to stop.

[dejableu]

I don't remember how to search for old posts. My computer crashed yesterday and I lost all the pages that I had just sitting on my screen for reference. I do, however, have a copy of that post and Ed Miller's response. They are below...

-----------------

Clarkmeister:

5 things that LL players would be better off "unlearning". This doesn't mean that some of these things aren't important skills or concepts to incorporate into your game at some point. They are. But they rarely have a place in LL games against the animals, and they are generally misapplied at the table. Some portrayals may be slight oversimplifications, but I think the general ideas are legitimate.

1. Raising for a free card.

The most overused play in LL holdem. Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card, and you’ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways. In addition, you will frequently cost yourself a raise on the turn or river when you hit. Unless you are in a situation where you have a ton of opponents and are "capping for value", its more often going to be correct (especially with small flush draws) to eschew the free card raise and play it straight up.

2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.

I see more LL players trying to checkraise semibluff on the turn and it never, ever works. Not only does it cost you that extra bet on the turn, it sometimes costs you TWO extra bets on the turn as you get 3-bet. Plus, even when you don't get 3-bet, its rare that someone doesn't throw that last desperation bluff into the pot on the river. And they almost always get called. By far the biggest chip burner of otherwise winning players.

3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.

Another mistake I see lots of people make is limping in with a hand like 89s, then calling 2 more cold back to them preflop, or coldcalling 2 on the button with like a raiser and one or 2 callers. These hands are chip burners and extremely difficult to play well postflop. Its easy to say "I flop a big draw or I get out" but its rarely, if ever that simple. Too many flops will come something like T83 and suddenly you can’t get out, and may have to pay quite a bit to either see the river, or find out that you are no good.

4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don’t "play well" in big multiway pots.

Hands like AA-JJ continue to gain EV (and variance) as you add people into the pot. Hands like AK and AQ also gain value, though its not as pronounced. The idea that one would rather have 78s vs 7 opponents than AK is a fallacious one. You may need to change some postflop strategies in this situation with your AKo, but it is still a significantly higher EV hand than the 87s.

5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.

All holdem literature admonishes new players to beware of kicker problems. For good reason. Its good to keep people away from the Ax hands that most new players love. But once you do see the flop with your big-little combo (Axs, or something like Kx from the BB), the pots are so big in these LL games that unless the Rock of Gibralter starts raising, you must proceed as if your top pair is the boss and play accordingly. Too many people will play middle pair aggressively, , jam their flush draws, even raise with bottom pair and a gutshot, and too many fish will chase even the longest of shots. Punish them and see what happens on the river when the smoke clears. This doesn’t mean to blindly play til the "bitter end", but it does mean that you shouldn’t be so ready to assume that you aren’t in the lead. I get the impression that many new players would rather flop bottom pair than top pair/no kicker, and that’s simply wrong.

-----------------------------------------------

Ed Miller:

I think this is great advice as usual. I especially like your point #5... in fact, I just finished an article about playing top pair and I pointed this very thing out. I see constantly in posts on this forum, "I played A4s for two bets on the button because I'm going to fold if an Ace flops" as if folding potentially the best hand is what turns this play into a winner.

I disagree a bit with #1. I think there is a lot of value (as I know you do as well) to learning to be aggressive with drawing hands, especially in late position. If the only reason you are raising is that you are hoping for a free card, then perhaps your raise is not well-conceived (e.g. you are playing a weak draw that won't be able to see the river if you miss).

Actually, what I see constantly on this forum (and in games) is people using the free card play on the flop with a marginal made hand. They want to "see a cheap showdown" so they raise the flop and check the turn. Blech... I think this play is almost never right. What they are usually doing is giving a free card, not getting one. If you really want to see a cheap showdown, raise the flop, bet the turn, and check the river. I basically never raise the flop and check the turn with a made hand.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For more on that, see Clarkmeister's post on "5 things LL players should 'unlearn.'"

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone have a link to this? I'd try to find it, but the guy has like 5 billion posts. I'm hoping someone has it marked as a favorite....

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask and ye shall receive.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=321233&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=)

[sthief09]

I agree with you that my play sucked on these hands. It's a lot easier for me to sit here for 10 minutes thing about a hand someone played and then critique it, than to actually go out there and execute what I've learned.

What you don't know is that I have a past of being overaggressive and just stupid at times. I'm attempting to now find more situations where passitivity is called for, rather than using force to bull my way through my opponents. Given that these were 2 small pots, there wasn't a reason to go for the check-raise. This is not my standard line, but there were a lot of people in, and I wasn't sure what to do, so I checked.

I don't think that paragraph applies to these hands, specifically the A9o hand. I did not fold because of resistance. I folded because calling would be a mistake there. There was a bet and 2 or 3 calls. Granted, I should have bet out, but just because I didn't bet doesn't automatically mean I should call. Check-folding there is better than check-calling IMO.

[sthief09]

I can't get better if I don't try new things. I'm consantly changing my game. sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. I'm just glad I have people to tell me when I'm screwing up /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dejableu]

I think your comment about the luxury of time and hindsight goes without saying. That is always the case.

I agree with you that check-folding is better than check-calling because check-calling is generally the worst possible way to play a hand. And that's why I am surprised that you check-called two streets on the first hand and check-called the flop on the second hand. But I wouldn't worry about it. In the end, you won one pot and lost very little on the other. So if you can recognize any mistakes or find a way to play them more profitably in the future, I would consider those two hands a success.

[Joe Tall]

Why you didn't check-raise the turn, I don't know.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[StellarWind]

Something is wrong with the converter. When do we get to the part where Sthief the Terrible punishes the big field with TPFK + gutshot + backdoor flush + backdoor Broadway?

It's OK to play for a checkraise on the flop ... provided that you remember to do it! You have plenty of equity in this pot to raise for straight value. And it's pretty confusing for your opponents who may put you on a flush draw or a monster.

Then if you really want to have fun you can check your "flush draw" when the turn blanks and sock them with a second checkraise. Good against thinking or aggressive opponents. But I would usually just bet the turn like a normal person and see who wants to try and draw out against a possible monster.

Betting the flop is also good.

[ QUOTE ]
Check with the intention of check-raising a LP bettor

[/ QUOTE ]
Well of course you should, but the unspoken idea behind this statement needs to be addressed. Anyone who would check the flop and fold to this checkraise is undoubtedly doing the right thing. It would be an error on their part to pay two bets to see the turn.

What's bad for them is good for me. I am very happy to trap someone for two bets with a checkraise after they have called. My agenda is not biased in favor of inducing folds; I just want to hit people with as much action as I can. It's up to them whether they fold or not. The only difference the position of the bettor makes to me is that LP bettors sometimes have weaker hands so I feel more hopeful.