Raising on the flop with a flush-draw

[stenaf]

Hi.

I just had a discussion with a friend of mine, and we can't look it up as another friend of mine has borrowed my copy of SSH.

I stated that you if you have flushdraw on the flop, one person bets and two calls then you should raise as you are getting 2-1 for your flushdraw. He on the other hand said that this would only be true if you would get a free turn card, something that I can understand.

Could someone explain the logic behind the flop-raise that is explained in SSH (maybe I don't remember this correctly...)

Thanks in advance.

[stenaf]

It should be noted that in this particular case, this is not a raise for a free card.

[TonyBlair]

I'm obviously being dumb here but which is SSH? I've probably read it.
Basically your friend is wrong because raising on a draw can be (and often is) for value and not just for the purpose of getting free cards.
It's almost a natural play on good, lower limit games IMO because half the people don't really know what's going on.
But factor into your decision the fact that you may be showing your flush early, you may not have the best drawing hand and that you are not always just against a pair. Any sets out there reduce the odds you think you might be getting to the point that you really could well want more than the three callers here (maths people welcome to come in at this point). Finally, you may not get all the callers you anticipated.

[OnEyedJaCks]

i like the play of raising on the flop with a draw after a couple of callers only if u do it to mix up your play. if in almost the same situation there is a couple of callers and u have a set or even top pair u raise just hoping that your opponents put u on a draw this is an awesome way to mix [censored] up
oneyedjackss

[TripleH68]

It is a simple concept and should become apparent to you the more you play limit hold'em. When you have a strong draw, esp. to the nuts, get as much money as you can in the pot early so long as there are enough callers. If you just call the flop, hit the flush on the turn and suddenly come to life...your action will often dry up quickly. If you raise the flop as though your hand is made, then the flush hits...your action could be much better. Then you mix it up. A few hands down the line you hit a set in a multi-way pot and start raising...etc. Value and deception. Enjoy.

[Dov]

You raise the flop for several reasons.

1. To mix up your play. This play is known as a semi-bluff. You are betting a hand which is not yet the best, but which has a reasonable chance of improving to the best hand. If you only play your big hands hard, you will be too easy to read.

2. You are getting the correct odds on your draw. With a fourflush on the flop you are approximately a 2-1 underdog to complete your flush This means that you will make a flush 1 in 3 times on average. (Assuming that you see both the turn and river cards.) If you have 2 callers, you will be getting 2 dollars for every dollar you put in the pot (2-1). If you get more callers, you are getting free money.(3-1,4-1,etc. on a 2-1 bet) This is what people mean when they talk about raising a draw for value.

3. You will sometimes win the hand right there or on the turn if you bet without improving and no one else seems to have a hand.

4. If you are in late position, you can sometimes take a free turn card.

Obviously, you need to adjust your odds somewhat if the board is threatening. (paired) or your draw isn't to the nuts.You don't have to give up, just be more careful and make sure there is extra money in the pot to compensate for the extra risk that you might make your hand and still lose. On a paired board, it is especially important to notice which card is paired as some are more likely to be in people's hands than others.

Hope this helps.

Dov

BTW - Pick up a copy of Theory of Poker (TOP). It will help you tremendously.

Note: SSH is Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, and Mason Malmouth and is essential reading for success at these limits. (IMHO)

[stanky]

"This play is known as a semi-bluff."


Not really. To be a semi-bluff there has to be a chance your opponents will fold immediately. With a bet and two callers it's highly unlikely.


By the way don't get carried away with this play, I reduce peoples odds all the time when I 3-bet it, then bet the turn when the flush card doesn't come.

[pudley4]

Your friend is wrong. It doesn't matter if you get the free turn card or not.

You are going to hit the flush about 1/3 of the time from this point until the river. This means that for every bet that is in the pot before the turn comes, you get 1/3 of it back. Any bet that was put in before the flop, you get 1/3. Any bet that is put in on the flop, you get 1/3.

Once the turn comes, all calculations must be redone; if the flush comes, you are probably now getting 100% of all bets (including bets already in the pot). If it doesn't come, you are getting about 1/5 of all bets.