Tongue Lashings and the Ed Miller Approach

[Crumpled Ear]

I have seen other posters discuss two effects of the Ed Millerian approach to poker: more money and wider swings. I, too, have noticed these and one other effect: more verbal abuse from my opponents who do not understand what I am doing. Have you noticed this too? My guess is that, to those who have not read SSHE, some of the plays seem counter intuitive. Here is an example of a hand at Pokerroom and the abuse that ensued.

I am in BB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Preflop: 6 limpers to Button who raises. SB and I call, one limper reraises, Button caps, and all call.

Flop (8 players): 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets, I raise with backdoor flush, gutshot, and to try to get other aces to fold. Limpers fold, CO raises, Button caps, SB and I call.

Turn (4 players): (3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, I bet, CO folds, Button raises, SB folds, I call

River (2 players): (3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif) A
/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, button checks (he has QQ).

And then, the tongue lashing:

The cutoff, who I am guessing had A with a higher kicker calls me the "biggest dumbass he has ever played with."

I reply, "Lucky wasn't I?"

Another player calls me a dumbsh*t for raising with a pair of threes.

I reply: "Defies logic, don't it?"

Another player tells me to leave the table.



The cutoff says I am an idiot.

Another player says, "Or a horribly good poker player."

And I think: Not yet, but hopefully someday with the help of SSHE /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Are you getting tongue lashings too?

[MoreWineII]

I've yet to receive a tongue lashing, but I hear a lot of mumbling under the breath and I feel a lot of dagger-like stares at times.

[All-In]

Wow, that's a rough table. Oh yeah, bet the river.

[me454555]

Check the turn. No one is folding for 1 bet and you don't have enough callers to make it a value bet.

Bet the river.

My response to those players is "go bust me and then I'll leave"

[MRBAA]

I like your raise here, with a pair and a strong draw but you don't particularly want other aces to fold, since you now have them reverse dominated.

[Barry]

I like your raise on the flop, with your decent draws.

The bet for value on the turn is shakey though. Even if you have 14 outs, you need to get all of them to call and the button sure likes his hand, so could very easily raise the turn again, which he did. You should check the turn.

You hit 1 of the cards that you were looking for, so bet the river.

If they don't understand what you were doing on the flop, just smile to yourself as you are stacking your virtual chips and don't try to enlighten them.

[colgin]

I don't like your flop raise at all. You are not going to get anyone to fold given the size of the pot (nor do you buy yourself any outs if you do), you certainky do not have the best hand and you are opening yourself up to a re-raise when you are drawing. Now, this flop may get capped anyway, but you certrainly do not want to help it along the way. You would love to see the turn here for a single bet if possible.

Bet the river.

[Crumpled Ear]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that's a rough table. Oh yeah, bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I blew it on the river. I got greedy and wanted to try for a checkraise.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't have enough callers to make it a value bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

14 possible outs with 3 opponents, sure he can value bet here. It's more likely even money, but i doubt he's losing money here with this turn bet. Also great for image, though the variance goes up a bit with it.

b

[Barry]

He probably has at least 5 outs, plus the backdoor flush. If he gets an A and/or a 6 to fold he could have 9 outs. It's a good raise on the flop.

[Barry]

He wants the A's to fold to give him the whole pot if a 4 comes.

[JinX11]

Glad you turned the other cheek...you're better than I.

I think I would've suggested that they should want me at the table if I was such a bad player. Then, I would have proceeded to raise the next hand pre-flop without looking at my cards. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
If he gets an A and/or a 6 to fold he could have 9 outs. It's a good raise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

[Noodles]

I agree ,no way in the world is an ace folding that flop

[BigEndian]

Check the turn, bet the river. Nice hand overall though.

- Jim

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot. You can't really value even half an out to the 6 as an overcard.

So the question is if you could convince an ace to fold. First suppose there are two overcards, like AK. You can't value these at full outs because of the coordinated nature of the board. It doesn't help that your AK is facing a bet and a raise. If you count like SSHE, you would at most give them 1.5 outs each, and with the gutshot around 7 outs. Needing 5.6 to 1. But if there is another ace out there, then you are drawing to half of the pot, cutting down your odds by half. And you could be beaten by someone drawing with a six. And there is a flush possibly also devaluing your hand. And you're facing a bet and a raise, so two people seem to already like their hands so far. So calling here can't be comfortable.

Now let's look at the psychology of typical player at Pokerroom.com. Against a bet and a raise, the next player could easily view the overcard outs as worthless with the only real strong draw being their gutshot. Now I don't know about you but the last time I played on Pokerroom they didn't think this hard through it. They'd see a bet and a raise, and all they have is a gut-shot, and they know never to chase with a gut-shot, so it's a fold.

Even so, it's costing you only one more bet to potentially save you the pot if you do hit the ace. Sometimes you will lose that bet, but you don't need to convince a better ace to fold too many times before this is profitable.

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot. You can't really value even half an out to the 6 as an overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? It was capped 8-ways preflop! The next person is getting more like 17:1.

To the OP:

Why do you want a bigger ace to fold? So you can make less when you hit 2-pair? Well I guess it doesn't matter because you didn't bet your 2-pair on the river when you hit it.

Did you ever think you were way behind on the flop when it was limp-reraised and capped preflop, and that what you were hoping for with your flop raise was to isolate yourself against the guy with a big overpair?

And why didn't you 3-bet the turn? If you thought you could value-bet it, you surely can value raise it?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop was capped 8 ways pre-flop making it 32 small bets. When the SB bets out there are 33 small bets. A raise, therefore, makes the odds to the next player 16.5:1. Of course, the effective odds are potentially worse given the pre-flop action.

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
What? It was capped 8-ways preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. I misread it. I apologize then.

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop was capped 8 ways pre-flop making it 32 small bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I definitely misread the OP /images/graemlins/blush.gif. So when you raise, the callers with an ace will correctly call.

As it stands though, The pot is huge and you're not going anywhere, and even if you can't cut down the odds very well, I still think that if raising can make a better ace fold sometimes (and they sometimes will because lots of people don't calculate odds on the spot and figure out of the pot is giving them enough, and many people play with weak-tight rules like 'never play a gut-shot') it's worth the extra bet.

Again, I apolgize for misreading the OP.

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands though, The pot is huge and you're not going anywhere, and even if you can't cut down the odds very well, I still think that if raising can make a better ace fold sometimes (and they sometimes will because lots of people don't calculate odds on the spot and figure out of the pot is giving them enough, and many people play with weak-tight rules like 'never play a gut-shot') it's worth the extra bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand why you'd like a better ace to fold? To clear up your gutshot outs I guess?

[Malcom Reynolds]

Cleans up the gutshot (less chance of chopping) and to some degree cleans up your chances of top pair of the ace drops, cleaning up your ace outs. (Not to be results oriented, but the results of this example show exactly how cleaning up the ace outs can win this pot.)

Cleans up all your outs in general, for only one extra bet. Even if you lose this pot most of the time, the raise will save you every once in a while, and for a pot this big you only have to win it once in a while for this to be +EV.

[Crumpled Ear]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand why you'd like a better ace to fold? To clear up your gutshot outs I guess?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly--if a 4 comes, I don't want to share any of this huge pot.

[Crumpled Ear]

you said:

"To the OP:

Why do you want a bigger ace to fold? So you can make less when you hit 2-pair? Well I guess it doesn't matter because you didn't bet your 2-pair on the river when you hit it.

Did you ever think you were way behind on the flop when it was limp-reraised and capped preflop, and that what you were hoping for with your flop raise was to isolate yourself against the guy with a big overpair?

And why didn't you 3-bet the turn? If you thought you could value-bet it, you surely can value raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]"


My response: As I replied elsewhere, if a 4 comes and I get a bigger ace to fold, I don't have to share the pot.

And about thinking I was way behind on the flop--yes I did, but I also thought I was still in this if the right cards come. So rather than worry about what others would do to me, instead I am thinking about what I can do to maximize my chances to win this titanic pot. <font color="blue"> </font>

[Bigdaddydvo]

this may seem like a rhetorical question, but with the Rosie O'donnell ass-sized pot, doesn't virtually everyone have the correct odds to see this thing to a showdown, almost no matter what happens in terms of betting/raising on the flop and thereafter? I think the flop raise does little more than feed Rosie another extra large vanilla milkshake. I'm in favor of going the distance for as cheap as possible

[arkady]

that guy with A and higher kicker (AT?) should be thank u not abusing you.

As far as the river, that is a horrible time to go for a check raise, the board is super scary and any high overpair is now scared.

[Victor]

Well, preflop and the flop are well-played, but I really do not like your turn bet. It is quite clear at this point that you are against an overpair. So, you need an A, 3 or the flush card. But your A outs might be tainted so lets say you have 13 outs which reduces to 13/33 = 2.5:1. So for this bet to show positive expectation you need all of your opponents to call. The fact that Button almost certainly has an overpair and will raise makes this unlikely. So check an call here.

The river is absolutely atrocious though. If all of the players had called on the turn then I would be worried of a 4 for a straight. But since you are heads with the Button he certainly did not make a straight. Sure AA is a possibility but every other overpair will call your bet here so it is clearly for value. Bet, and call a raise here.