floorman call misdeal

[rjamesd]

A situation came up recently while I was playing limit hold 'em at my local card room. There was a misdeal and the floorman made a determination that I don't understand. I'm looking for a real rock-solid "official" opinion and hoping you can help me.

For simplicity I will describe what happened as if seat 1 had the button. There were three players left (Seat 2, 5, and 8) and the dealer had just brought the turn card. Seat 2 bet. Seat 5 called. While Seat 8 was pondering his decision, the dealer didn't notice that the action was incomplete and inadvertently dealt the river card. Immediately after the river was dealt Seat 8 folded his cards face down, but they did not hit the muck. The floor was called over and gave this ruling: shuffle the river card AND Seat 8's cards back into the deck and deal the river again. I have two questions:

1. Why shuffle the folded cards back into the deck? Doesn't this change the final probabilities?
2. Because Seat 8 folded face down, the play of the two remaining players was not affected, so why re-deal the river?

If Seat 8 had wanted to stay in and was just slow to call, I agree that you have to re-deal the river since his decision would be affected by whatever card was dealt. But in this case, it seems to me that the proper call was to muck Seat 8's cards, leave the river as dealt, and start the action with Seat 2.

Thanks for your help.

Bob Devaney
Portland, OR
rjamesd@mmode.com

[Cazz]

Technically, what you have here is an "early river". I.e. the river card was brough before all the action was complete. Anytime this happens the river card will be brought back, the action finished. Then the river card should be shuffled back into the stub and a new river brought.

As for your questions:
1) The river card has to be used in case this is a key card for anyone. Also, if this card were discarded, then someone (like seat 8) might bennefit from knowing this card could not come. He could fold if he needed it for a straight and 1 out makes a difference or he could raise if he thought it would help someone else. The card should only be shuffled back into the "stub" and not the stub plus the muck, so the odds of this card being dealt should be the same as it was before.
2) Anytime there is an early river, it needs to be brought back. There would be cases when seat 8 is folding based on the river card and not the turn bet.

One note: if the dealer grabs his cards and mucks them, then he has no recourse since he didn't protect his hand. In some card rooms his hand might be declared dead, but I like the floor's decesion here. He still has to either call the turn bet or muck.

There are similar procedures for an early turn or flop.
For an early turn, the turn card is brought back and set aside, and the action is completed. The dealer burns and turns and brings the card that would have originally been the river card as the new turn. After the turn betting, the original turn card is shuffled back in and a river is dealt. I assume this is because the river card hasn't been fouled and should be used (even if it is used as the turn) and you don't get two shots at an exposed card.

For an early flop (or a 4 card flop), I believe the stub is reshuffled right after the preflop action is completed.


Hope this helps.

[emp1346]

Though Cazz seems to know what he's talking about, I still like the simple 8 muck and 2/5 proceed without further ado. /images/graemlins/grin.gif