No halfway measures on this flop: JTs

[StellarWind]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
UTG+1 is loose. No reads on the other key players.

Preflop: Hero is CO with J /images/graemlins/club.gif, T /images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, ...

[bisonbison]

Stellar, you should be raising this preflop for value and for the chance to buy the button.

I would fold the flop.

[Bigdaddydvo]

you really fold top pair here bison w/this flop? I don't see many draws...are you that concerned that an A-Jo limped in or something?

Or you could be kidding. I may need to go kick my own ass if you are.

[bisonbison]

I'm not kidding. I don't see any draws, but I do see a bet and a raise ahead of me, which, on a draw free board, is often meaning that TP, T-kicker isn't the ass-kicking hand it's made out to be.

[Richard Berg]

Ironically, if you pump the pot as you suggest, you can't fold the flop...

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see many draws...

[/ QUOTE ]

...exactly...

[Garland]

The pot is relatively small, and a bet has come out from BB...an extremely vulnerable position with a hand you will be hard pressed to define. Now a raise has come from MP3 on a drawless board (true, there are some freaky straight and gutshots possible, but still...), and you want to tangle with top pair, questionable kicker?

MP3 has told you that you are beaten, and he has blown your odds to bits as well by offering you 11:2 to draw. In addition, BB isn't finished speaking yet. If BB caps it, you'll be forced to call, but what are you going to do on later streets? You've built the pot giving yourself odds to continue to the river and you're not sure if you're rooting for a J/10 or not. If you improve, you may still lose and you'll be kicking yourself for throwing good money after bad.

Let this one go. You are almost certain to be beaten in one, if not two spots. You almost certainly need to improve to win.

Raising is certainly better than calling, but folding is clearly right. You've made your small investment preflop, but it's time to use your position and knowledge to your advantage and dump it. The investment has gone sour.

Garland

[bdk3clash]

I'm with bison. Not everyone raises AJ, let alone KJ or QJ. I think there's a good chance you're drawing to 3 outs presently--if that.

[StellarWind]

My at-the-table thinking was similar to most of you. There are no draws so this looks really bad.

But the little guy on my shoulder--you know him, red, horns, pitchfork--said that's much too weak-tight with top pair, fair kicker. So I blasted away.

Button coldcalls and the two aggressors call.

Turn is another jack! That was that. I bet and they all went crying to their mommies. Next deal.

But I still felt pretty funny about the whole thing which is why I came here. Anyone want to defend my play? Any ideas what they all had?

Thanks for the input.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone want to defend my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to defend. It worked out for you this time, but will probably fail more than 90% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Any ideas what they all had?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB probably had something like middle pair, good/top kicker like A4. MP2 almost certainly has an underpair to JJ. As for button? I have absolutely no idea. Maybe a 2?

Garland

[sthief09]

I'm shocked that you didn't pop this preflop.