PT STATS... COLD CALLING PROBLEM??

[j0n_blayze]

Hi. Was going over my stats.. I have over 6k logged. I know this is not a great sample size but i have noticed a huge anomaly. In the CO and 2 off the button I am respecticely -.01 and .01 BB a hand. Overall I am 6.06 BB/100 hands and make a great profit from all other positions significanly greater than these late position stats (except blinds of course). The only correlation I have found is that in the CO and 2 off button are my highest cold-call preflop stats 4% and 3.92%. Is this the reason why my BB/hand is so low for these positions? What should these numbers look like in these positions?

[bisonbison]

I don't know exactly what constitutes a coldcall in PT, but there are logical reasons why you would be coldcalling in LP more often than in EP.

[Oponn]

What hands are you cold-calling with? If you're cold-calling with AQ, AJ, KQ, etc., then it's a problem. You should only be cold-calling with low and medium pocket pairs and big suited broadway (in loose games). Big pairs and AKs you should reraise. I've lost a lot of money cold-calling and reraising in late position with hands that are vulnerable to domination (e.g. AQ), so I'm speaking from experience. Don't learn the hard way like I did.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
The only correlation I have found is that in the CO and 2 off button are my highest cold-call preflop stats 4% and 3.92%.

[/ QUOTE ]
My PT coldcall rate is about 0.25% overall and most of that is on the button. You probably have a problem here. Post examples of what you do.

I doubt that this is a major factor in your win rate.

[Oponn]

FWIW, my cold-call stats are button 2.6% and CO 1.3%. Most of my profit comes from these two positions. Discalimer: I too have a small sample size in PT - only 5500 hands. These percentages include cold-calling with AQ for the first 3500 hands (before I discovered the error of my ways).

[joker122]

Does that mean you cold call 4% of the raises ahead of you, or that you cold call 4% of the total times you're in that position?

[j0n_blayze]

so no cold-calls with AQ or KQ? i usually do in these loose 2/4 games. I guess this is my problem here.

[j0n_blayze]

Wait... could my low bb/hand rate for these two late position be possibly because PT takes into account my dead blind and blind posts????

[bisonbison]

you have six thousand hands, your win rate overall means nothing, and your win-rate over the 1000 hands in those positions means less than nothing.

[j0n_blayze]

yes thanks i figured id get a few of these posts and its true. now.. could my low bb/hand rate for these two late positions be possibly because PT takes into account my dead blind and blind posts????

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait... could my low bb/hand rate for these two late position be possibly because PT takes into account my dead blind and blind posts????

[/ QUOTE ]
No. All large blind posts regardless of position are filed under BB.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean you cold call 4% of the raises ahead of you, or that you cold call 4% of the total times you're in that position?

[/ QUOTE ]
The latter. 4% of all hands dealt in these positions (except posts) are cold calls. PT takes total cold calls and divides by total hands played. That's why it's so bad.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
you have six thousand hands, your win rate overall means nothing, and your win-rate over the 1000 hands in those positions means less than nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a 4% CC rate in these positions is more than enough to signal a leak here even after a measly 6K hands.

I know I am a big non-coldcalling advocate but for a comparison, he would have to not coldcall for the next 50K hands to get his numbers down to where mine are.

[bisonbison]

How does PT count cold calls? My rate is 0.25 over 100k hands.

hand 1: UTG limps, MP raises, you call - obviously a coldcall.
Hand 2: UTG raises, MP raises, you call - is that a coldcall?

[MicroBob]

Explore examples of when you are CC'ing to get a truer indication of whether you're doing it too much,

I will typically only CC with PP or Axs.

If it's extreme multi-way like 5-7 players then I'll CC with suited-connectors as well....but many around here don't seem to like this so much.

Regardless, you shouldn't be CC'ing with AK or QQ or AJo, etc.
You should typically either be re-raising or folding these.

Although if it's 3-bets to you and multi-way I think you can CC with QQ (depending on your impression of the players involved of course).


I am similar to Nottom in that I'm a big advocate of keeping your CC numbers to an absolute minimum.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: UTG raises, MP raises, you call - is that a coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean MP reraises (3bets)? That would also obviously be a cold call...

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I am similar to Nottom in that I'm a big advocate of keeping your CC numbers to an absolute minimum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah bison's 0.25 is mighty fishy in my book.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
so no cold-calls with AQ or KQ? i usually do in these loose 2/4 games. I guess this is my problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have good news. You have an opportunity to make a major improvement in your game with almost no effort:

1. Never coldcall with unsuited cards. AQo can be either raise or fold depending on how much respect the raiser deserves. I fold it a lot and often regret my decisions to play it. KQo and AJo are autofolds unless you are facing a steal raise or a maniac. Read that last sentence over-and-over until you get it. KQo and AJo are deathtraps against a legitimate raise.

2. Most valid coldcalls are pocket pairs. The pair must be small enough that you think the raiser is likely to have a better hand or you should raise. You are playing primarily for set value although you obviously will also win other pots. There should be several other players in the hand. My default is at least three loose limpers or coldcallers in addition to the raiser. This assumes somewhat loose blinds who will often join the party.

3. With several other players in the pot you can also experiment with "big draw" hands like KQs, QJs, JTs, and AQs-ATs. These require skillful play postflop because of the domination problem. Sometimes AQs should raise instead.

4. The SB can play about the same against a single raise, except I'm quicker to call with pocket pairs because only paying 1.5 SB instead of 2 SB improves my leverage and I always have good flop position to exploit my set. I can checkraise an EP PFR and bet to an LP PFR for a likely raise.

5. Nothing in this post discusses the BB.

[bisonbison]

oh yeah! what's your number?

[Sample Size Man]

I deem your sample size:

INSUFFICIENT

[MicroBob]

Hooray for a well-times SSM appearance!!

[MicroBob]

Mine is actually around 0.7.

In a discussion on CC'ing (i think in the general forum) a few months ago I think someone theorized that if a player NEVER cold-called they wouldn't be surrendering too much EV.
And many players would be doing themselves a HUGE favor.

That post (whoever it was) did wonders for me in improving my game.

I think that NEVER CC'ing as a general policy is a bit extreme....but I do agree that if you wanted to do it you wouldn't be missing out on much. You would probably be folding hands that you should have been folding anyway....and re-raising with hands that you should have been re-raising with anyway.

[bisonbison]

Note, my post above was supposed to read:

hand 1: UTG limps, MP raises, you call - obviously a coldcall.
Hand 2: UTG raises, MP calls <---, you call - is that a coldcall?

[j0n_blayze]

newbish question: The definition of cold-calling is calling any raise as opposed to re-raising no matter how many people have called that raise already? or is cold-calling just calling a raise in front of you when no one else has?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
oh yeah! what's your number?

[/ QUOTE ]

0.16%

[bisonbison]

Rock.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine is actually around 0.7.

In a discussion on CC'ing (i think in the general forum) a few months ago I think someone theorized that if a player NEVER cold-called they wouldn't be surrendering too much EV.
And many players would be doing themselves a HUGE favor.

That post (whoever it was) did wonders for me in improving my game.

I think that NEVER CC'ing as a general policy is a bit extreme....but I do agree that if you wanted to do it you wouldn't be missing out on much. You would probably be folding hands that you should have been folding anyway....and re-raising with hands that you should have been re-raising with anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The post you mention sounds like something I would have said. Although I agree that never coldcalling is probably wrong, I do think that for an average player it would be a much better for them to eliminate coldcalling all together than to continue at the rate they are currently coldcalling. Only after you take it out of your preflop playbook all together should you be allowed to slowly add it back in where needed.

[Nottom]

Thats nothing, my 5/10 6-max rate is a retardedly low 0.03% after 30K hands. (Thats 10 total for those that are counting)

[Sheriff Fatman]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine is actually around 0.7.

In a discussion on CC'ing (i think in the general forum) a few months ago I think someone theorized that if a player NEVER cold-called they wouldn't be surrendering too much EV.
And many players would be doing themselves a HUGE favor.

That post (whoever it was) did wonders for me in improving my game.

I think that NEVER CC'ing as a general policy is a bit extreme....but I do agree that if you wanted to do it you wouldn't be missing out on much. You would probably be folding hands that you should have been folding anyway....and re-raising with hands that you should have been re-raising with anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=520560&Forum =All_Forums&Words=cold%20calling&Searchpage=0&Limi t=25&Main=520560&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=55 14&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post520560) might be the thread you are referring to Bob. I, like you, found it very useful at the time so thought it might be of interest to some reading this thread.

Not sure where my figures stand at the moment having now exceeded 50k hands (I'll check up after work) but I did loosen up slightly from the standards I quoted in this thread (thankfully I've also learned a few other things since starting this thread, like re-raising with AKo /images/graemlins/blush.gif).

As I stated at the time (February/March) I'd seen very little guidance regarding frequency of cold calls. Since then, Ed's book has actually discussed the subject and I discovered that his 'once every few hours' approach coincided pretty well with my looser standards. Personally, I think its a good guide to measure against.

Cold call frequency is still an often overlooked PT stat though. Personally I wish it was visible in the Game Time window as, to me, its a very good indicator of a player's ability. I actually like the 'never cold-call' type approach as good advice for new players learning the game. However, I ended up concluding that, with reasonable post-flop skills, it does lead you to give up a little too much once a player's game has sufficiently developed.

Sheriff

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
newbish question: The definition of cold-calling is calling any raise as opposed to re-raising no matter how many people have called that raise already? or is cold-calling just calling a raise in front of you when no one else has?

[/ QUOTE ]
A coldcall occurs when you call more than one bet at a time. It can occur on any street and it doesn't matter whether there have been other callers. It doesn't matter whether you chose not to raise or simply are not allowed to raise (cap, all-in).

I use the term coldcall for when the SB calls 1.5 bets. I'm not sure if this is generally accepted usage. I don't use the term coldcall if the amount is one bet plus a tiny bit more (all-in). Once again I'm not sure this is standard.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I deem your sample size:

INSUFFICIENT

[/ QUOTE ]
Not this time.

I believe his numbers show over 50 coldcalls out of about 1300 hands played in cutoff and MP3. That's outrageous. I can say with virtual certainty that he is doing something seriously wrong.