6's

[Anadrol 50]

I was recently in a tourn in a casino....

It was midway through the tourn. The blinds were at 200-400 with a 50 ante. This level had been going on for about 20 minutes and was much higher than the previous level which was 100-200 with 25 ante. The average stack was about 5000. There were a few 10K stacks and a few 2K stacks. I think the other tables had way more chips. Since this level had began, the table was playing super tight. Every time somebody made a raise the entire table folded to the raiser who then picked up the antes and blinds. I raised once to 2500 and picked up the blinds and antes.

A few minutes later with a chipcount of about 4500 I was in early position and looked down at 2 6's. I raised to 1500. In late position a well dressed guido raised it to 3000, I pushed all in. Was this the right play ? raising and pushing ?

[Roman]

no, you have no folding equity on a tight table and are either a slight fav or a huge dog. This table is tight, you still have room to steal, fold and find a better spot.

[SossMan]

I think you have to push here and simply hope that he doesn't have a higher pair. The problem is that you have no folding equity, but you have already put in too much of your stack to fold.
I would have pushed in this spot originally since the antes are pretty high and the table is tight.
Instead of pushing, you can also try a call and putting in your last 1500 on any flop. You may get a little bit of folding equity on the flop if he totally whiffs. If he has something like 88 and the flop is 3 overs, he may want to save the last 1500. It can't really be any worse than pushing preflop where you know he'll call with any 2.

[Anadrol 50]

Should I have folded this hand pre-flop ? The reason I made the raise is that I felt that I had to start buiding my stack. I think there was only a few minutes in the level and the blinds and antes were going even higher.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have folded this hand pre-flop ? The reason I made the raise is that I felt that I had to start buiding my stack. I think there was only a few minutes in the level and the blinds and antes were going even higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the table is as tight as you describe, i think folding would be passing up a decent shot to add 20% to your stack most of the time, and probably a 40-45% shot at doubling if you are called.
The problem with most tournament players is being too loose early, and too tight late (esp on the bubble). I try to take advantage of these mistakes.

[Anadrol 50]

Thanks sossman. It was that tight, this was the first hand that was even called or reraised on this level.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks sossman. It was that tight, this was the first hand that was even called or reraised on this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

he had a big hand?

[Anadrol 50]

Unfortunately, he turned over two aces and I was sent home.....

[Anadrol 50]

How is it a '40-45% shot at doubling if you are called' ?

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
How is it a '40-45% shot at doubling if you are called' ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Soss is aggregating a few scenarios
1. he has overcards and you are 54% favorite
2. he has overpair, and you are 20% favorite
3. he has underpair and you are 80% favorite
4. he has split cards (A3 for example) and you are 70% fav.

Scenarios 1 and 2 are by far the most common, with 1 being more somewhat more likely. He's quickly multipling in his head the probability of being ahead by the chance of winning to get 40-45% aggregate.

--Greg

[betgo]

I think pushing is probably best, or you could fold. The tightness of the table doesn't help you that much, because if someone has a higher pair they will probably call anyway, atleast TT and up will. If someone doesn't have a pair, you don't mind if they call. Pushing is probably an EV+ play. It's risky, but you are short stacked and don't mind risking elimination. You could also wait for easier opportunities to pick up the blinds in late position.

I don't like the standard raise. I would only do it on a straight steal with junk or a big pair.

[SossMan]

The tightness of the table doesn't help you that much

I think it does...you wouldn't make this move if people were calling all ins w/ KQo or QJs.

[Jdanz]

Soss i agree that the table being tight is helpful, but what is your stance on the original play?
Knowing the table is tight what is your play in that situation? Do the cards even matter?
Long story short, what is your play in that situation, and why?

-JDanz

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
The tightness of the table doesn't help you that much, because if someone has a higher pair they will probably call anyway, atleast TT and up will.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this table is as tight as suggested I can't see people calling with TT or JJ for that matter. If they are then it is not as tight as described. I see hands like AJ, AT, JJ, TT folding to this raise here.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Soss i agree that the table being tight is helpful, but what is your stance on the original play?
Knowing the table is tight what is your play in that situation? Do the cards even matter?
Long story short, what is your play in that situation, and why?

-JDanz

[/ QUOTE ]

here's my original response:

I think you have to push here and simply hope that he doesn't have a higher pair. The problem is that you have no folding equity, but you have already put in too much of your stack to fold.
I would have pushed in this spot originally since the antes are pretty high and the table is tight.
Instead of pushing, you can also try a call and putting in your last 1500 on any flop. You may get a little bit of folding equity on the flop if he totally whiffs. If he has something like 88 and the flop is 3 overs, he may want to save the last 1500. It can't really be any worse than pushing preflop where you know he'll call with any 2.

[Jdanz]

sorry for not rereading orginially, but if you would push here specifically because of the money in the pot, and the tightness of the table, does the fact that you have sixes matter? what are the minimum hands you would push in this situation?

-JDanz

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry for not rereading orginially, but if you would push here specifically because of the money in the pot, and the tightness of the table, does the fact that you have sixes matter? what are the minimum hands you would push in this situation?

-JDanz

[/ QUOTE ]

I would prefer a pair here since AK/AQ is likely one of the most common hands that will be calling you.
If we give a range of hands to potential callers of:

AA-TT, AK, AQ (fairly wide given the table description)

AA-JJ = 24 combos
AK = 16 combos
AQ = 16 combos

If someone calls, they are more likely to have AK/AQ than a big pair, so I would prefer a hand like 66 (or 22 for that matter) to a hand like Ax in that spot.

With that range, if called the 66 is:

55% favorite 32 times (57% of the time)
20% favorite 24 times (43% of the time)

so you win about 40% of the time when called vs. that range. before, i estimated 40-45%. Given that you probably pick up the pot uncontested about 75%-80% of the time, this should be a +EV play.

Rerun those numbers w/ Ace-rag or TJ and you should be able to see why having a pair matters.

[Anadrol 50]

Sossman,

I had 4500, how much higher would my chipcount have to be for a different action than pushing ?

[SossMan]

probably not much bigger. You have about 10x, so if they are going to call you for 10x, they are almost as likely to call you if your stack was twice that. The only way you will have significantly more folding equity w/ 20x would be a big stack with specifically TT/JJ/AQ. A big stack is probably still calling you with QQ and AK.

Since those situations are pretty rare, your folding equity doesn't linearly go up w/ your stack.

Also, with a bigger stack, you can make a smaller raise and accomplish much of the same while still being able to get away from the hand preflop without losing your tournament.
I would say that anything more than about 15x (with antes, probably about 12x w/out antes) would be too much to push here. In fact, with 15x, I might even fold, and wait until it's folded to me in MP/LP and steal w/ any 2.

[MLG]

I actually think with about 10x folding this hand preflop is ok. Generally speaking if a table is too tight there are a lot of chances to get chips when you are in the blinds. That might just be a stylistic preference though.

[mullaney]

I don't like the push after you made the raise to 1500. What do you think this other guy has? His double raise there smells like a big pair to me, maybe AK, but probably QQ or better. He is aching for you to call or push.

Now about pushing with 66 from UTG with 10+ BBs... am I the only one who thinks that very short and very large stacks might call his UTG push with TT, 99 or worse? Personally I don't like pushing here with 66. It's right on the border, but when I'm in survival mode and I have a couple of rounds in me, I want to put myself in situations where I have a reasonable chance of dominating someone when I push and get called. 66 just doesn't dominate very many hands. I have definitely passed on pairs worse than 66 in this position. If you had 9BBs or 7 or certainly 5 or less, than you really need to push, but pushing over 11BBs with 66? I would make your original raise simply 3BBs, and then fold to a reraise.

That's just an opinion, and realize that I could be very wrong.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think with about 10x folding this hand preflop is ok. Generally speaking if a table is too tight there are a lot of chances to get chips when you are in the blinds. That might just be a stylistic preference though.

[/ QUOTE ]

He described the table as very tight. Given what might call you at a "very tight" table, i think a push here is fine (given the fact that there are antes, too)
I do understand what you are saying about there being possibly easier chances a little later on.

[SossMan]

i think the fact that there are antes plus his table description makes this play a push. I don't hate a fold here, though.