Stop bullying me! [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

ddubois

09-12-2004, 02:08 AM

Two bubble hands where I stood up to the table bully - Stupidly? (Both are Party Poker 50/5's. I'm taking a stab, and so far so good.)

Hand #1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t3150)
BB (t935)
UTG (t5445)
Button (t470)

With the two tiny stacks, I can fold my way to the money - There's a clear argument for passing on anything (except KK/AA of course) when I'm behind the big stack's raise. But I make a somewhat emotional decision. I couldn't stand letting this guy keep getting away with raising every other hand, and I had been waiting patiently to catch him. Also, if I double up here, I have a monster stack and am in great place to make first. Can I pass up AQs? Should I just call?

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t800, 1 fold, Hero raises to t3150 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG calls t2350.

Flop: (t6600) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t6600) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t6600) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t6600
Main Pot: t6600 (t6600), between Hero and UTG. > Pot won by UTG (t6600).

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Qs (high card, ace).
UTG has Td Tc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: UTG wins t6600. 

--------------------------------------------------------

Hand 2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1710)
Button (t3545)
SB (t1920)
Hero (t2825)

This guy wasn't as much of a bully as the first guy, so I couldn't be positive he was raising light. Do I just give up A8o? It's a hand I would push any position first in, and one I would push behind limpers I cover, but behind a big stack raise, I probably should fold, right? Personally, I find it extremely difficult to gather up the courage to re-steal, because people who raise seemingly so rarely fold ro a re-raise. Thus, I tried to do something "stop-n-go'ish", and that flop wasn't that bad for me. I'm interested in comments on both pre- and post-flop. I guess the all-in call sucked the most of all my decisions, but in the moment I thought might actually be ahead (I know, unlikely, but I could see a Kh or worse ace bluffing at it. I've been seeing a great deal of naked aggression with nothing post-flop on steals that are called.), and if I was behind I could have 9-15 outs.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Button raises to t600, 1 fold, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1350) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t800, Button raises to t2945 (All-In), Hero calls t1425 (All-In).

Turn: (t6520) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t6520) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t6520
Main Pot: t5800 (t5800), between Button and Hero. > Pot won by Button (t5800).
Pot 2: t720 (t720), returned to Button.

Results in white below: 
Hero has As 8h (one pair, queens).
Button has 6h 5h (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Button wins t6520. 

Thanks,
Dan

LokiV

09-12-2004, 03:30 AM

The first play is emotion blocking good judgement. They were miniscule stacks compared to you and the leader. All in at that point against the one man who can cover you?

I like money.

I agree with the 'I'd be monster stack and take 1st for sure!' but I don't feel this was the right play.

As far as the 2nd game, defending your blinds is good but after that flop I'd drop that hand like the cards were on fire.

GimmeDaWatch

09-12-2004, 05:41 AM

In the first hand, Id probably just call and push if I hit top pair on the flop. These compulsive raisers often will never fold to a re-raise so you're risking getting knocked out for no good reason and even if youre ahead against most hands you're not that much of a favorite. If you miss the flop, youre still well ahead of the small stacks, and if you hit you most likely are way ahead. On the 2nd hand, what on earth were you thinking? You have an 8 hi flush draw, Im guessing you were trying to steal on the flop but calling the all-in? I dont get it.

Jman28

09-12-2004, 07:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The first play is emotion blocking good judgement. They were miniscule stacks compared to you and the leader. All in at that point against the one man who can cover you?

I like money.

I agree with the 'I'd be monster stack and take 1st for sure!' but I don't feel this was the right play.

As far as the 2nd game, defending your blinds is good but after that flop I'd drop that hand like the cards were on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second all of this. Although the bet on the 2nd flop wasn't bad... but let go after the raise.

ddubois

09-12-2004, 07:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the 2nd hand, what on earth were you thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well...

[ QUOTE ]
I thought might actually be ahead (I know, unlikely, but I could see a Kh or worse ace bluffing at it. I've been seeing a great deal of naked aggression with nothing post-flop on steals that are called.), and if I was behind I could have 9-15 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

... and I was getting 3:1 at that point.

I still should have given up, I guess. I didn't know whether to feel vindicated to see the results that my 8-high flush would have been good had it hit. But if I were going to be completely results-oriented, seeing his holding strongly indicates a re-steal would have been the right move, because I can't imagine he'd call a push with 56s.

I must point out you didn't offer an alternate lines as a recommendation. I posted expecting criticism, but I was hoping for something more constructive.

If the pre-flop call is correct, I'm somewhat confident it's correct to try to steal on the flop. Check/fold can't be right... If I was going to check-fold a non-ace/non-8 flop, I should have folded pre-flop for sure. Do you think it would have been better to push the flop? I don't like pushing in general because I think it represents "Please don't call because I'm on a draw and/or I'm full of [censored]". This has always been my problem with the stop-n-go manuever. I therorize, probably incorrectly, that a smaller bet has more fold equity because it's more beievable that I have something. Does anyone think this might be true?

Stoneii

09-12-2004, 09:35 AM

1) No need to go to war with big stack unless u hit the flop - wait til u get him heads up before u start making him pay for bullying

2) All u could beat was a bluff when he went all-in - throw them across the table into the muck

G'Luck

stoneii

Phill S

09-12-2004, 09:45 AM

the second hand has been more than covered imo. i cant really add to it.

the first hand was a tough one. if one of the other stacks was larger (2K range) then id play this for my stack, however you can basicly fold out to second barring a really lucky streak by one of the short stacks. going for first and risking 4th is a sound enough theory (i subscribe to it) but if you can are (as close as) guaranteed second with little risk, and your basicly able to count the winnings from third , i dont think this is the time to gamble.

at best your prolly a 60-80% fave, making you bubble boy 20-40% of the time.

Phill

LinusKS

09-12-2004, 12:13 PM

ddubois,

I see the argument for folding to the money here in the first hand.

I'm not going to tell you, though, that you're wrong. In fact, I'd probably do the same - you just have to be prepared to catch some beats now and then.

AQs is a pretty damn good hand. You also have to consider that if you never play a hand against the bully, you're leaving the chances to double to the short stacks, by default.

If, on the other hand, you fold good hands here, hoping to slide into the money, (losing blinds while the short stacks get chances to double up) your chances of winning are less.

Yes, you'll probably get at least third here by folding, but you have to balance the 1sts against the 4ths (and 2nds and 3rds) to get a good sense of your EV.

In truth, it was just bad luck that the big stack happened to have a hand that time. Most of the time, he would not.

On the second hand, I think you were wrong.

I can see calling the min-raise with A8o, but on the flop I think you can only afford to bluff with an amount you can afford to lose - and considering the relative stack sizes, I don't think you afford to make a reasonable-size bluff here.

You have to consider that a raise here almost has to mean he has something - and you were a dog to almost anything he could have here.

I would have checked and folded.

chill888

09-12-2004, 12:14 PM

The play on the 2nd hand looks worse because of the strange call but:

In the first hand the guys in 3rd and 4th had really small stacks. You just CANNOT allow yourself to go broke on this hand unless you have a great hand beating by a better one. Either fold preflop, or cold call and maybe take one swing at the pot post flop - unless you really hit the flop.

2nd hand, OK you took a swing at the pot - fair enough (nothing wrong with folding preflop either). But you can't call a bluff with a bluff - especially for your whole stack and on the bubble.

Two missed opportunities IMHO. Good luck

LinusKS

09-12-2004, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If the pre-flop call is correct, I'm somewhat confident it's correct to try to steal on the flop. Check/fold can't be right... If I was going to check-fold a non-ace/non-8 flop, I should have folded pre-flop for sure. Do you think it would have been better to push the flop? I don't like pushing in general because I think it represents "Please don't call because I'm on a draw and/or I'm full of [censored]". This has always been my problem with the stop-n-go manuever. I therorize, probably incorrectly, that a smaller bet has more fold equity because it's more beievable that I have something. Does anyone think this might be true?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time folding A8 to a min raise when I'm in the big blind.

Maybe it's a flaw in my game, but if you're getting better than 3:1 on your money (including the sb) you can afford to fold on the flop more often than not, and still make money in the long run.

Plus, it has the incentive of convincing the button he can't count on taking your blinds on the cheap.

It is correct to try to steal on the flop, but only if you can afford to fold if your bluff fails. If you feel like you're not going to be able to fold to a raise, you're better off not trying it - especially in a situation where you're almost certain to be behind if the villain does raise you.

I'm not very comfortable pushing with A8 here (preflop). AQ, yes, A8 - no. Especially where I have the second biggest stack, and the biggest stack isn't that much of a bully.

I agree with you that the all-in does - at least sometimes - scream, "Please don't call me, I'm full of it."

Sometimes you're better off making a smaller bet on a complete bluff - and sometimes you're better off going all-in, when you really do have a hand.

PrayingMantis

09-12-2004, 01:10 PM

Hand 1

Tough one. Very read and dynamics dependant. But generally, the more important thing is how are big-stack's calling standards, rather than his raising standatds (or more accurately: the combination of the two). You _really_ don't want him to call you here with a PP, or hands like KJ. So if you are not too sure he will fold all these hands (many hands, actually), this push against him here looks pretty marginal, especially considering there are 2 rather small stack, not one.

It doesn't matter that he actually had a rather good hand, and what was the result. You're in exactly the same spot if he calls you with 33, remember. It's about *pushing against big stack*. AQs is a very nice hand, but in this spot I'm not sure you gain enough by pushing, and you might actually lose too much, especially if you're playing it too strongly against a very loose player.

Calling and acting after seeing a flop might be better here.

Hand 2

You just can not call this raise all-in here. Pot-odds and outs are pretty much irrelevant, with the specific stacks, bubble situation and all. And if you feel you have a tendency to make such a mistake post-flop, I'd suggest folding A8o to a big-stack's raise, PF. Again, you can simply lose much more than what you can win, if you play it in a certain problematic way. And then it becomes -EV to even see a flop with it here, especially against an aggressive big stack.

P.S

I think the play in these two hands is very much a result of thinking (or feeling) along the lines of "not letting big stack bully me", without considering more factors. However, That's what big-stacks do, very often - they bully. It's natural. You don't have to make a stand against them (by raising OR calling), simply because they are too aggressive, even if you have a pretty nice (but not very strong) hand. Play your best game. Don't let an aggressive big-stack get under your skin.

chill888

09-12-2004, 01:32 PM

PM said:
But generally, the more important thing is how are big-stack's calling standards, rather than his raising standatds (or more accurately: the combination of the two). You _really_ don't want him to call you here with a PP, or hands like KJ. So if you are not too sure he will fold all these hands (many hands, actually), this push against him here looks pretty marginal, especially considering there are 2 rather small stack, not one.

chill888: Very good point (re his calling standards) but it's not just PP that you don't to call. With those 2 small stacks you don't want a call from ANY TWO cards. AQs is only 70% favorite versus 72o.

That is why raising preflop - in this situation - is usually IMHO wrong. He has you covered and allready a lot of chips in the pot - and you can't stand ANY call.

gl

ddubois

09-12-2004, 03:58 PM

the more important thing is how are big-stack's calling standards, rather than his raising standatds

I can see the logic in this, and how that would be extremely useful information to have. But I'm not sure how feasible it is for me to make that kind of estimation. The majority of his raises were going uncontested; I think he had been played back at once or twice and called, and I don't recall him showing hands there were notably loose, but with a sample size of two or so, I would not feel comfortable making any claims as to his range of re-raise calling hands.

Unless villian has made some markedly loose calls, I don't know how anyone else could make that estimtion unless they had played with this person in prior SNGs. Also, even if he had made a loose call earlier in the tournament that had stuck in my mind, I can't rely on that as much of a read, because that would have necessarily been differnt circumstances, i.e., maybe he was shorter and had better pot odds or was more desparate to double up, or maybe the re-raiser was shorter and would not hurt his stack as much. Here on the bubble against the other big stack he might tighten up signifigantly, but I don't feel I can know that for certain.

I should hope that he would give me credit for pushing a top5% hand here - given how close it is to the money, anything less would be stupid. If he does recognize this, that should impact his calling standards.

You didn't make it clear if you think calling is the right play? What's your plan post-flop? Check-raise TPTK? What do you like on a miss? Can I call 25% of my stack pre-flop and check/fold the flop when I miss ~75% of the time (and still lose some percentage of the times that I hit)?

chill888

09-12-2004, 04:05 PM

Your post was after mine ... but not sure if your question was to me.

As in my post, with TWO SHORT STACKS and bubble, you can't attack big stack. Maybe call and take a swing.... but DON'T go broke here, not with 2 small stacks.

PrayingMantis

09-12-2004, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can see the logic in this, and how that would be extremely useful information to have. But I'm not sure how feasible it is for me to make that kind of estimation. The majority of his raises were going uncontested; I think he had been played back at once or twice and called, and I don't recall him showing hands there were notably loose, but with a sample size of two or so, I would not feel comfortable making any claims as to his range of re-raise calling hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is understandable. It is not very easy to put someone on his exact "calling standards", in a course of an SNG.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless villian has made some markedly loose calls, I don't know how anyone else could make that estimtion unless they had played with this person in prior SNGs. Also, even if he had made a loose call earlier in the tournament that had stuck in my mind, I can't rely on that as much of a read, because that would have necessarily been differnt circumstances, i.e., maybe he was shorter and had better pot odds or was more desparate to double up, or maybe the re-raiser was shorter and would not hurt his stack as much. Here on the bubble against the other big stack he might tighten up signifigantly, but I don't feel I can know that for certain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. You can't know for certain.

[ QUOTE ]
I should hope that he would give me credit for pushing a top5% hand here - given how close it is to the money, anything less would be stupid. If he does recognize this, that should impact his calling standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the whole point. You shoudln't probably "hope", as you say, because you have a very healthy second stack, and there are 2 small stack. You can and must pick on them, whenever you have a chance and big-stack is out of the hands. Taking chances against big stack, might be too much risk for too little gain. You are not desperate for chips, very far from it. You are not sure about big-stack, but you know for certain that *he* is not going to bust if he calls you. And AQs is not a monster, not here.

I'd be glad to hear some more opinions about this hand, but that's how I see it. There's still a rather long way to go. And you have other ways to get yourself chips than to go to war with a manic big-stack, PF.

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't make it clear if you think calling is the right play? What's your plan post-flop? Check-raise TPTK? What do you like on a miss? Can I call 25% of my stack pre-flop and check/fold the flop when I miss ~75% of the time (and still lose some percentage of the times that I hit)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling seem to be better. If you hit TP, You want to get it over on the flop, probably a CR, depending on the specific flop. I understand how you feel about check/folding if you miss. It's a tough spot, and I'm not even sure about calling PF. Folding PF might be an option too (as weak-tight as it seem). Somtimes it's not about the hand you hold, but about the dynamics of the game. If you feel you can be aggressive with garbage against the player acting behind you, and gain more than by playing this specific hand here (calling, that is), then you probably don't gain enough simply by calling here, trying to hit your hand, especially if big-stack is kind of loose-crazy. Tough spot.

durron597

09-12-2004, 07:06 PM

Hand 1: I flatcall the raise and see what the flop brings. If he has AK and the flop has an ace, I lose my stack. Also I will often times bet out the flop here no matter what I have, he would have to be pretty ballsy to play back at you with a TT on that board, though I probably wouldn't bet that particular flop because probability says he hit that flop unless he has a pocket pair. If he checks behind though, I push the turn unless he's a tricky player.

Hand 2: If the player had been a bully, than this is a great hand for a preflop resteal. I think moving in over the top is much better here than in the previous hand; his stack is closer to yours, and your hand is much less strong post-flop (if you pair your 8, you can't even be sure it's good). Also he's only miniraising which on the bubble you can often take as a sign of weakness unless you have reason to believe otherwise.

willie

09-12-2004, 08:00 PM

i just experienced the stone cold bluff call.

moved in immediately when a scary flush card came out hopin to the push the opponent away with my aj of hearts that missed. here he comes with the call with 25 of spades, 5 high!

rivers a deuce....

"i knew you were bluffin!"

these people....he didn't even have a flush draw. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

this isn't a bad beat story either, the guy had been a bully so it kind of applies.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif