collusion for online games?

[snowlarbear]

saw this mentioned in a post about PacPoker... are there many instances of collusion in online games? if so, how badly can it hurt your odds?

[KenProspero]

If it's there, collusion can kill you.

Two players playing in tandem (i.e., communicating what cards they have to each other). One with a weak hand can push up the pot whenever the other has a strong hand.

As to your other question, I'm sure there's some, but have no idea how much. Advice, if you see something that doesn't smell right, leave the table

[Webster]

I've been playing for 3 years at least 15 hours a week and I've ONLY seen collusion (as far as I know) 2 or 3 times and all 3 at Pacific.

Pacific has a core of players that are always there (sort of like a club) and while there are a ton of passive fish there are always a group of "known" tight players there.

I've never seen "known" collusion elsewhere. Perhaps software si to fast to colluse at REAL places.

[snowlarbear]

hmm thanks.. so thats why i keep losing all my money.

[adamstewart]

I didn't see a smiley face of anything, so I can't assume you're being sarcastic.

Either way, I doubt collusion is the major cause of your poker losses.

[snowlarbear]

yeah, i wish it was. many holes to patch up on this money leaking ship.

[benkath1]

While we are on the subject, I don't suppose you see it at lower levels? Under a buck in limits. And when you do, how do you pick up on it? I am playing at pacific ($10 sign on bonus, so none of my own money) and have heard this before.

[wdbaker]

[ QUOTE ]
While we are on the subject, I don't suppose you see it at lower levels? Under a buck in limits. And when you do, how do you pick up on it? I am playing at pacific ($10 sign on bonus, so none of my own money) and have heard this before.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you have $10 at Pacific and are worried about collusion... I just don't know what to say... It's times like this that... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

[Webster]

You can spot collusion when 2 players are on opposite sides and one of then raises and reraise trapping somebody in the middle.

Now of course they could just be bad players but if they are somewhat tight and do it a few times I perk up.

A for YOUR problem - Dimes to donuts your leak is post flop and you are always TRYING to see one more card.

You are probebly not getting OUT of your hands fast enough and you are probebly playing overcards and losing because SOMEBODY has that 6, or the other guy had AQ and you had AJ.

[madmisha]

Collusion exists, but it happens in such a minority of the tables you will be at, it shouldn't be much of a factor in you long-term success. This would be especially true at beginning limits.

[wdbaker]

I'm guessing you were addressing this to someone else as my message was totally facetious

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, co

[benkath1]

But...if I loose my ten dollars...I might not get to play any more...then what would I do???

[AncientPC]

Stop playing poker or deposit more money.

[snowlarbear]

i think this was addressed to me. i'll see if it applies..

[helpmeout]

You keep losing your money because you are a bad player not because of collusion.

I don't see how collusion can effect your game very much. I mean they don't know what cards you have so they could be bumping the pot for you.

It would hurt the fish much more because they are taking their bad hands too far.

Oh no someone is bumping the pot up when I have the nut flush draw.

[RydenStoompala]

The number of cases of collusion is unknown. So the answer to your question is that it is unknown if there are many or there are few cases.

There would be an obvious mathematical/logical approach to analyzing the +EV of acting in collusion. The value would fluctuate, depending upon circumstances, but in general it would be a strategy that offers more value than acting fairly. If you take a statistically significant number of hands, something north of 1,000, and apply a mathematical analysis to each, assigning an EV differential to the hands, you would attain your expected advantage for that particular strategy. It gets more complicated with analysis of position, number of players, number of players acting in collusion and other factors.

I can only guess that the +EV would be great, enough to support an ongoing strategy. Other problems then surface. If you utilize a strategy of collusion on any particular site you run two risks: 1) you get caught by system surveillance and the strategy is defeated or, more likely 2) you ruin the experience for the opponents by eliminating or severely reducing their normal EV and therefore making the games unplayable. Your anticipated advantage never materializes and the strategy fails.

It's an interesting problem.

[emp1346]

It's a problem for bad colluders.

Good colluders can potentially not use the blantantly obvious raise / reraise trap, therefor not raising suspicion or lowering the perceived EV of the other players.

Also, sites don't really have any kind of sophisticated check for collusion. From my understanding some of them try to use rough computer analysis to try and keep an eye on people who consistently raise and then fold before showdown, especially to another player. There's not really anything they can do, though, to catch the simplicities of instant messaging.

Weak colluders simply use IM not to maximize their own profit, but to simply prevent their own loss; when does my friend have a better hand than me?

Iffy colluders do the whole raise / reraise thing. Picking their spots might give them a helluva pot here and there, but this method can't be pulled off extensively without becoming blatantly obvious.

And as for good colluders, they're rare, so worrying about them only affects your play in general. Stop worrying, play, and as has been said, in the long run your ROI will be fine.

Or you can do what I do and stick mostly to home poker games. /images/graemlins/grin.gif