TT in level 4

[ddubois]

How weak is this fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero (t2500)
CO (t800)
<font color="C00000">Button (t1090)</font>
<font color="C00000">SB (t2095)</font>
BB (t1675)
UTG (t1840)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t1090 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t1040, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero folds.

[w_raedy99]

I know i am definitely no expert and am new to this forum somewhat, but I personally think this is a usually a good fold. With a big stack I am usually rather conservative to let the other stacks hit each other, except in the occasional good steal opportunity.

However, given it is at Party Poker, I might call. People go all in there with ANY pocket pair it seems to me, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were in a dominating position.

Without a good read I think being consersative is most likely the more 'text book' play but at least personally I would probably go for it. Btw you don't mention buy-in, field size, etc... I am not sure if you are just talking about an SNG or a larger tourney, most all of my experience is in SNG's.

Hope that is helpful,
Will

[CrisBrown]

Hi ddubois,

With an all-in reraise and a call behind you, this is an automatic fold in my book.

Cris

[w_raedy99]

Oops, didn't see the caller, DEFINITELY a fold in my book.

Must be going blind /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Will

[ddubois]

Ok, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't being results-oriented. One guy had AK and whiffed, and the other had 77 - I would have won (with a superflous T on the flop). I definately would have called if SB hadn't.

Do you call if their hands were face up?

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you call if their hands were face up?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to call 600+ into a pot of 2600+ when you have roughly 45% shot at the pot? Uh, yeah.

But I agree that the fold is correct. Next time you're up against JJ and AK or worse. (Actually, if you could see their cards but they couldn't see yours, calling against JJ and AK may very well be correct. But it's all very hypothetical.)

[durron597]

I'm actually going to disagree here and say that my action is actually very player dependant. Remeber, you are only calling about 600 chips into a 2600 pot; so your pot odds are better than 4:1. You can't just ignore that fact and say "he has AA-JJ, easy fold". I would make this call every time against a loose player in the small blind, or if I thought that his "just call" was a sign of weakness (from prior hands).

Remember, the key is always try to put your opponent on a range of hands. If the SB has to have AA-JJ, AK to make that call (I personally wouldn't even call with JJ, but that's me; so if you are playing against me in the SB here, you should fold /images/graemlins/grin.gif). However, if the SB is someone who could call with 77, AQ, AJ, etc. then you should definitely call, since the pot odds are so good. Which player had the 77 and which had the AK?

[willperkins]

I would also fold. If BB goes "all in" I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt and put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Three of these hand dominate you and the other is a coinflip.

The icing on the cake is when the SB called. You still have plenty of chips to wait for a better spot to play.

[Jason Strasser]

This is a very fun situation, first of all good post.

Here is my analysis, although I firmly disagree with anyone saying easy fold yadda yadda.

First of all, it jumps out to me that you raised to 400 PF. Why? Why not 300? I think it would actually have made a big difference in this hand. If you get into the habbit of raising more with middle-pocket pairs, that's bad, because that's what poor players do. I make my standard raise here with TT.

Ok, now decision time. You are getting 600:2400 on this call. so 1:4. Now here's the thing, this hand completely depends on the SB who cold called the raise and the reraise.

1) Is he solid? If you know he is solid, easy easy fold. There are sooo few hands I think a solid player would call with here. AA and maybe KK. I'd cold call with AA I think, and with KK i'd be more apt to push.

2) Is this player an utter moron. IE, will he bluff into a blind-side pot? I also would be very likely to fold or even push over the top against this type of player. I think calling is a horrible idea, because you will be forced to fold a lot on the flop if this player is very loose and aggressive. You really do not want to be in marginal spots like this where a LAG person can do you damage and force you off your hand.

3) If the player who called the bet is a weak tight player, I'm all for seeing this flop. This is the type of player who is very happy to eliminate someone, and may check a hand like QQ or JJ to the river if an ace flops. He also may have called with AK or AQ or maybe even 99 or 88 if he is weak and crappy. These players do exist, even on partypoker. Against this type of guy, I'm all for seeing the flop. Remember, you are getting really really good odds. You don't have to win this hand with TT unimproved very many times to make this call very profitable. I will agree that the majority of the time you will end up being behind both hands preflop. But IF there is a spot where one guy has AK and the other 77 (as you had), once every three or four times, (plus the implied odds you will flop a set against an overpair), I think you should make this call.

Merely saying that "You must fold this every time" is weak. Analyze the situation, 4:1 is 4:1.

-Jason

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, it jumps out to me that you raised to 400 PF. Why? Why not 300? I think it would actually have made a big difference in this hand. If you get into the habbit of raising more with middle-pocket pairs, that's bad, because that's what poor players do. I make my standard raise here with TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know 4xBB isn't his standard raise? It is my standard raise, but I'd love to hear good arguments for why it shouldn't be.

[Jason Strasser]

If 4xbb is standard, that's ok I guess. Generally i think it's too large of a raise for a standard raise, because it will be harder to fold to a reraise and also a 3xbb and a 4xbb will generally have very similar success rates at stealing blinds.

-Jason

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know 4xBB isn't his standard raise? It is my standard raise, but I'd love to hear good arguments for why it shouldn't be.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea should obviously be to risk as little as possible, in order to win as much as possible. In most common situations, and against most players, a 3xBB raise will achieve the same folding equity as 3.2xBB raise (or in other words: it's better in terms of EV). So, it's more efficient to steal (PF raises are many times steals) with a 3xBB raise, than with a 3.2xBB.

I think that the same thing might be said in regard to 3xBB against 4xBB. While 4xBB could gain you somewhat more folds, the price you're paying for it looks too big. I'd say that in most cases you'll achieve pretty much the same result by raising to 3xBB.

BTW, fossliman (the world champion) is known for raising 2.7xBB, in many situations. In discussions here, he said that you achieve practically the same as with a 3xBB, but you save chips when you fail. In the long run it is very important, especially if you're a loose-aggressive player.