TT: Value betting or mere chip spewery?

[bdk3clash]

This was an early afternoon Party jackpot table. Reads are long since forgotten. Comments on each street appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: bdk3clash is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">bdk3clash 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">bdk3clash bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">bdk3clash bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls $1 (All-In), Button calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">bdk3clash bets</font>...

[smartalecc5]

chyip spewery, middle pair wont win you anything with 4 players in the pot.... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Alobar]

I think you played it ok.

you can make a case for checking the turn, because you picked up a gutshot and getting raised = not good. but with the aggression youve shown so far the K might be a good card for you.

once you dont get popped on the turn I think betting the river is mandatory, if you check a better hand is betting and you are calling. So you might as well bet yourself and just pray

[Evan]

I give up on the turn. I don't think you're getting called in 4 places without a single jack out there.

[SomethingClever]

Before you even get to the chip-spewery, this is something I always find tricky. You have TT in the SB or BB and someone in LP raises.

3-bet? Cold call?

Fold?

JJ is a clear 3-bet IMO. But should you always 3-bet TT? What if you have no read?

[bdk3clash]

All those limpers are begging me to make them pay 2 cold or fold, either of which is probably a good thing for me. Plus, seeing whether the raiser caps or not preflop is pretty helpful. So that's why I 3-bet.

I don't always, like if there's a tight EP raiser and a bunch of cold-callers. I dunno, it depends.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
Before you even get to the chip-spewery, this is something I always find tricky. You have TT in the SB or BB and someone in LP raises.

3-bet? Cold call?

Fold?

JJ is a clear 3-bet IMO. But should you always 3-bet TT? What if you have no read?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see an issue with the 3 bet here he is more likely ahead of a LP raiser and it give early limpers the chance to fold, ideally you want to play 10's against fewer players.

After that I play the hand the same maybe a J is out there but he hasnt told me and this flop there are flush and straight potential there for these guys to hang around. To me betting is better than check calling.

[sthief09]

being that I probably wouldn't overcall the river, I wouldn't bet. I agree with Alobar that you'd rather check so you can see the river for one bet.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I give up on the turn. I don't think you're getting called in 4 places without a single jack out there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Out of the question. He has outs.

[StellarWind]

I coldcall preflop against most opponents. I don't see a lot of value in this raise:

1. We will be dominated quite often and it will often cost double when we are.

2. TT is simply not that strong a hand. Yes it has lots of equity against loose limpers, but here you are out-of-position against a big field that includes a known strong hand.

3. Special issue: Cutoff is running out of chips. The extra dollar you are getting from him now doesn't mean anything if he would have put it in on the turn anyway.

But the biggest reason to just call is you really cut down on you postflop options. Did you really want to bet this flop? Isn't this an ideal hand to go for the checkraise? Your 3-bet could easily have lost the pot.

Having reraised, the flop bet is normal.

There is a lot to be said for check-calling the turn.

I suppose you should bet the river. Yuck.

[Garland]

Hi StellarWind,

I really respect your posts and your insight. So I when I commented on the linked post below stating I'd just call in the BB with TT to 3 limpers and a late position raiser, I got criticized from a lot of readers who prefer 3-betting to:

a) clear the limper field
b) if not clear the field, make the original limpers make a big -EV play by calling another 2 cold with vastly inferior hands (preflop equity)
c) get information from the original raiser

I contended differently, but others swayed my opinion. They said that TT was the cutoff for 3-betting (they would not do it with 99 or lesser pairs), while mine was JJ.

Now that I read your post, and I believe your opinion matches my original one for similar reasons, so I guess it's up for debate again.

I'm curious to find out what your standard for 3-betting from the SB or BB in a similar situation and if you have any opinions on the items I listed above?

Thanks,

Garland

3-bet TT in the blind with 3 limpers + late position raiser controversy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1007661&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=)

[StellarWind]

I didn't see that thread. Almost an exact duplicate.

[ QUOTE ]
if you think I shouldn't be 3-betting TT after 3 limpers and a raise, then you're out of your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's good to know /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I would normally 3-bet with JJ and essentially never 3-bet with 99.

If I thought that Button was an aggressive real estate raiser, such as a preflop LAG or a typical 2+2, then the 3-bet would be good. But no read was given and a large fraction of my opponents are likely to have very solid values for that raise. Probably this is a more serious issue at 2/4 than 3/6, so that is a small difference between the hands.

I don't want to redo the whole debate, so I'll just add a few points that haven't been fully touched upon:

1. Just because the limpers are making a mistake calling two more cold, does not automatically mean that you will be the primary beneficiary. A lot of that money goes to the button.

2. When you limp with terrible hands as so many often do, calling one more can be a second error. The rule that limpers should always call one more is for people with actual standards. The 3-bet can improve your opponent's play by convincing them to fold. As the owner of a set-builder, much of this cost definitely comes out of your pocket. You also take a big reduction on your implied odds when you knock anyone out of the pot.

3. The biggest disadvantage to raising is it destroys your flexibility on the flop. This can cost entire pots when you need a checkraise to protect an overpair. When you flop a set it can cause button to just call instead of raising your flop bet with overcards.