Felt lost on this one

[Ponks]

I felt pretty lost on this one. I posted a hand a few days ago, and was told to just call the whole way, letting him bluff overcards, and make the least when he has a better overpair. Did I apply the concept right in this hand, or did I misplay it?

Thanks
Ponks

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.20 BB, between Hero and Button.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (10.20 BB).</font>

[InchoateHand]

I'm not the right person to answer this (since I posted a similar thread today, with a similar question), but yeah, I think this is how you apply this concept. If he has AA-TT or AQ, obviously you are lost. I can't really see a hand with an eight in it that an average opponent would three-bet.

However, I think this is one of the marginal scenarios--unless villain is a large scale LAG, or has one hand specifically (AK), I'm not sure what you beat.


I too await answers on this.

[Alobar]

I c/r the flop. You might be able to push him off Jacks Tens or the unlikely nines or his 6 outer AK.

If you just call down you are investing 2.5 BB, with a c/r you really arnt putting that much more in (if he raises you on the turn you fold for 2BB investment, if he 3 bets and you fold turn if you dont spike you invest 1.5BB, if he calls you down the whole way and you lose its 3BB), and the pot is fairly large so I think the times (even if it is very rare) you get him to fold a better hand it makes it worth it.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I c/r the flop. You might be able to push him off Jacks Tens or the unlikely nines or his 6 outer AK.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is zero chance of pushing the PF raiser off of any premium pocket pair, since a flop c/r by Hero, in the wake of his PF raise, would basically scream "I don't have a Q." If opponent is any good, he's not folding AK anyway, since he'll have the odds to peel one off.

Once you get to the turn HU, I think that checkcalling it down is fine.

[lil']

Looks good.

You could make a case for betting the river.

[Atropos]

I think this decision highly depends on the player you are in the pot with. If you know he only reraises you with AA,KK,QQ preflop - well you know the answer yourself.
I dont think you could push anyone off from anything that beats you, and you rather want him to keep bluffing with his overcards, so I think check-calling is fine. I however would bet the river and fold to a reraise, since you want to call down anyway you get some fold-equity here. If your opponent is tricky enough to reraise this river with overcards, its probably still better to just check-call it down.

[lil']

If you know he only reraises you with AA,KK,QQ preflop - well you know the answer yourself.
Well if that was the case you would fold on the flop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The point of a river bet is not to make a better hand fold, because that aint' happening. It would be to get a call from ace high with a suspicious looking bet.

[sfer]

I think there is a very good case for betting the river.

[Atropos]

"The point of a river bet is not to make a better hand fold, because that aint' happening. It would be to get a call from ace high with a suspicious looking bet. "

It wont happen too often, but it will happen once in a while, thats why I prefer it over check-calling because of the some "fold-equity". Thats what I meant with it, I think you can fold to a reraise against all but the strangest opponents?

[sfer]

Of course you fold to a raise. A raise on that board is either a maniac or a hand that crushes you. You bet because an Ace will usually call but only sometimes bet.

[Ponks]

Yah, I definitely thought about betting the river, and I'm 99% sure this guy would call with ace-high. This was only like my 3rd or 4th hand at the table so I really had no reads on the guy.

[Ponks]

Button ended up having TT and MHING. I think if I bet into him on the river he wouldn't raise as well, so I think it woulda been a good play.

Ponks

[sthief09]

check-raise the turn. why? because you'll only get 3-bet by a Q (to which you're drawing dead, and will then fold, costing you the same amount), A-high might fold, and thus stop drawing to 6 outs, occasionally a weak-tight player holding a pocket pair will fold, and you can check the river and your opponent usually (IMO) won't bet because he'll fear you've got the 8.

of course, this only works if you can get your opponent to check behind on the river.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a very good case for betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


betting into a complete blank after a QQ88 looks like BS. that's a bet that's asking to be raised, forcing you to fold.

[lil']

betting into a complete blank after a QQ88 looks like BS. that's a bet that's asking to be raised, forcing you to fold.
Of course it looks like BS, that's why A high will call it!

[Monty Cantsin]

Yeah, but the fact that it's "suspicious looking" - which might cause A-high to call it - is why folding to a raise isn't so obvious and easy.

/mc

[sfer]

No hands that you beat are raising the river.

[sfer]

I think that line is fine from everyone but you. An observant opponent will quickly realize you checkraise a ton of hands and only like 25% of them are monsters (hands or draws). It's your fold-inducing move.

[Tosh]

It may look like BS but you aren't going to hit a raise (at least hardly ever) from a tricky AK here. Betting must be better than check calling here IMO, IF you are going to showdown.

[sthief09]

are you serious? do you not pay attention to how I play? I almost never check-raise as a semi-bluff (and I NEVER do it online), unless I feel like being a douche, which I think I've done twice in the times at NYPC. when I check-raise I almost always have a big hand.

this is just like you thinking that I always raise the SB when it's folded to me and you're BB, when in reality I only raise Ax, pocket pairs, and suited connectors

EDIT: maybe you're thinking of the flop, where I do like to check-raise a lot and pump the pot, but on the turn when I raise 99% of the time I do it because I'm holding the best hand, not because I want to induce a fold.

[sthief09]

yeah maybe I'm looking too deeply into this. I still like check-raising the turn though.

[sfer]

Remember your 33 hand with Evan? You thought about checkraising the turn there.

[sthief09]

Evan is capable of folding something. Most other players aren't. besides, I didn't actually do it, and I don't think I have the balls to do it. I did check-raise that kid that one time with a flush draw then again on the river when I hit it, and I check-raised the guy the first 5/10 session when I turned a straight flush draw with an ace overcard and he was tilting. other than that, I can't remember ever BS check-raising the turn. I hate wasting big bets, but I do waste small bets.

the reason I like it in this situation is because it costs the same.

[sfer]

I prefer to watch you whiff on checkraises on every street.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer to watch you whiff on checkraises on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]


you should watch me play online. 4 times the 3-street check-raise whiffing