PF raise...call thrice?

[SossMan]

strange'ish hand in a recent tourney. $100 buy in. 20 players. top 4 get paid 40%/30%/20%/10% ($800,600,400,200)

We are 3 handed and the stacks are:

Me (button): t13k
SB (unknown...tripled up early..coasted from there...thinks he's tricky, but he's not really "tough tricky" just kind of "huh? tricky"): t10k
BB (lucky beginner folding too much shorthanded): t2k

Blinds: t400-t800 no antes

I have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button and raise to T3k, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop (t6800): K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets out T800 (minimum bet). I call.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

SB bets out T800 again. I call.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

SB bets out T800 again. I call (again).

I'll post my thoughts and the results later. I'm guessing I'll get some flack for my turn play.

[MeanGreenTT]

Newbie that I am, I most likely have no business offering an opinion but I most likely woulda raised when the 2nd A hit and made him pay to draw the flush, IF that's what he was doing...:)

[fnord_too]

Now that's just a bizzarre hand.

I think this is very read dependant. Not where you are at as much as what his range of reactions to being raised is. Are you affraid if you raise him he may come over the top for all his chips? If that is a real possibility, then I think this line is ok.

What does this min bet mean from him? Monster that he is trying to trap you with? A draw he wants to take cheaply? A marginal hand like TJ or K9? I think if you believe he will keep betting the minimum, either to suck you in or to keep the pot small, just calling even on the turn is ok. Certainly you can't fold to such a tiny underbet. It would really suck to get pushed off the hand or to have a raise called and see a better hand. The only real problem I have with calling the turn is that when I call these small flop / turn bets I usually see a big bet on the river I cannot call. It turns out I'm usually on a draw in these situations though so I don't really mind folding here (assuming I missed).

[familyteeth]

would a tight coasting player call 30% of his stack with a flush draw? even AJs
his turn play says so, or inducing to trap.
interested to know why you didn't define his hand on the turn.
could have had 44 but why not allin pre-flop with a pocket pair?
or the turn to make a draw pay him?
maybe i just call three times cos i'm lost - nothing new

[patrick dicaprio]

the turn is probably fine if he had a King because you want him to bet again on the river thinking you are on a draw, if you raise he will fold, but then his river play doesnt make sense unless he had a diamond draw and hoped that you would think a min bet on the river was a bluff, but i am curious as to what he had, I cant think of any hands I would hold that I would play the way he did.

Pat

[SossMan]

interested to know why you didn't define his hand on the turn.


I'm not sure how to define his hand without PC'ing myself...assuming I'm not PC'd already.

[SossMan]

I cant think of any hands I would hold that I would play the way he did.


i can't imagine ever playing a hand that way no matter what the situation.

[familyteeth]

did this end up as a chop?

[SossMan]

1 time bump

[MLG]

I thik you played it fine. He probably has you beat, but not necessarily (this could be a naked K). Preflop raise is easy. After I raised preflop I'm certainly not folding for 800 into a 6k pot (I might ove all-in here normally but with a 2k stack im willing to play small pot poker). On the turn a call seems ok to me, unless your opponent is very likely to call off all his chips with just a K if you raise. The only problem is what do you do against a huge river bet, but you didn't have to face that. River call seems unbelievably routine. I'd probably call 800 even if he flipped over a 4, just in case he misreads his hand.

[Bigwig]

I think you played the hand very well.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
1 time bump

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been four days, tell us the results already!

(It's ok to be result oriented when you are living vicariously!)

[swimfan]

You have position, have him out-chipped, the SS is very passive, and you showed strength. Raise the flop to around 4500, +/- 500. If he re-raises all-in you can fold. If he calls, very likely you'll get a free card if you miss on the turn. If you hit an A on the turn, I'd push if checked to, and since he's "tricky", be committed to calling if he pushes. If he folds, congrats, you win. I think you were somewhat lucky he continued to min-bet the turn and river.

Given your flop play, I'd play the turn and river the same. I'd laugh at him if he played A-T or K-T (especially) in this fashion. Like a Ming the Merciless laugh.

[SossMan]

It felt funny calling 3 times after raising Preflop (kinda like sliding down the rope in gym class).

He flipped over KTo and MHIG.

Let's take this one street at a time.

Preflop:
I have been raising almost every button hand to 2.5x and stealing often enough for it to be insta-profit. So, I'm not going to change it up w/ this hand...I think preflop is pretty easy.

Flop:
I like having position with this flop, since the rest of the hand will get tricky no matter what falls. I figure I'm probably behind here about .5 the time, and he will call an all in here anytime he can beat at least bottom pair (i.e. any king, any ten, any pckt pair >4). I don't think he will make this little bet into me on what he thinks is a pure bluff (i.e. small pocket pairs). He may make this bet w/ QJ or middle diamond connectors and that seems to fit his preflop call.
I can't really put him on a hand, but I sure am not going to fold to that little minibet when I have 4 outs to the nuts. So, I call and see what the turn brings.

Turn:
I'm not sure I like the card or not...when it hits, I tell myself that he was trapping me on the flop w/ a set or he just hit his st8 w/ JQ and he has the nuts.
Or I just sucked out on his naked K. I was prepared to be done with the hand, but then he bets that stupid little 800 again. Sonofabitch, this little fuckr wants me to give him his chips...screw that. Getting 900,000:1 on my call, I call.

River:
I'm not thrilled about the diamond showing up, but it's hard for me to put him on a flush draw hand after he called so much preflop. I suppose he could have called w/ something like 89d or 78d preflop, and if so, then I sure played this hand like crap.
I like the fact that the 4 paired the board, though, since I'm now beating KT, which seemed more and more likely.

So I call again and he curses himself for not pushing on the flop. I told him that I would have called anyway since I could have hit a T for the st8. (he says, "oh yeah, you would have to call, huh?" Yup, I always call with a gutshot, hehe)

The main reason for not reraising anywhere is that I didn't want to reopen the action, since I wasn't thrilled about going to the felt on this hand.

I thought it was a good case of pricing someone in.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd laugh at him if he played A-T

[/ QUOTE ]

if he played AT in that fashion, he would have extracted the maximum out of me.
AATTK beats AA44K, right? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[swimfan]

If you're raising almost every button pf, I would have played the hand exactly as you did. The only thing I don't like about my line is being so committed to the pot if re-raised. Did you laugh like Ming the Merciless?

[swimfan]

oops

[SossMan]

You have position, have him out-chipped, the SS is very passive, and you showed strength. Raise the flop to around 4500, +/- 500. If he re-raises all-in you can fold.

Raise the flop to 4500, then fold for (lets see, his stack =10,000-3,000-800 = 6200) 1700 more? I would be getting odds to call that based just on my nut gutshot outs.

[swimfan]

not a good posting day for me, too lazy to figure out his stack after the bets. again i say, "oops"

[Jason Strasser]

Ok Soss, I didn't read any of your analysis.

I did read the results, but I had an inkling he had a king. My second guess was a hand like 88.

Here's the deal, I think you played this hand perfectly. Against a tricky player who understands prize structures, you do not want to re-open the betting rounds on any street. I think the call on the flop is not close, as you have position with a hand that can improve and you are getting a good price.

The turn call seems very good. I do not see a reason to raise the turn. For starters, this type of player could raise all-in with a hand you beat (that would qualify as a "huh?"). Because you are late in a mutli--folding AQ on a board like this is going to be correct often, especially because of the short/weak stack who is waiting to get eliminated. I also think you make more money in the long run calling the turn, because a player like this will often bet into you on the river with a hand you beat, whereas he might've been scared away if you had raised.

The river, I'm happy to take my hand to showdown without risking my stack. A raise all-in here may be a decent idea if you had seen this "small bet out of position" crap before and know the range of hands he could have. I really think calling the river is the best move though.

Ni han,
-Jason

[Bernas]

Looks like you played this hand perfectly.

[willie]

either fold on the missed flop, or move in on the turn when you catch the card you're looking for.

you played this hand in a fashion that i'm sure you can't be happy with at all.

[Bernas]

Why would he fold to a minimum bet on the flop?
Why would he push on the turn if he still couldn't put him on a hand???

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
either fold on the missed flop, or move in on the turn when you catch the card you're looking for.

you played this hand in a fashion that i'm sure you can't be happy with at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think i missed the flop if my opponent is only going to bet 800 into a 6800 pot.

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
either fold on the missed flop, or move in on the turn when you catch the card you're looking for.

you played this hand in a fashion that i'm sure you can't be happy with at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think i missed the flop if my opponent is only going to bet 800 into a 6800 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i misread the hand history sir, thankya much. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
i misread the hand history sir,


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never, ever, ever done that before /images/graemlins/tongue.gif