Question about starting hands (EV chart)

[Compit]

I am referencing this EV chart for HE starting hands:

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands.html

These numbers seem to place a high value on being suited- inordinately high. I am assuming that these numbers were obtained by running endless simulations in which flop/turn/river were dealt and the best hand credited accordingly.

But this isn't how the game is really played. Wouldn't it be helpful to have one chart for a 3 card board, one for a four card board, and one for a five card board?

If anyone can point me to such a table I would appreciate it. And I would like help understanding why a hand like KTs is rated over AJo and KQo. The latter two hands I will play in middle position if folded to me, while KTs and A8s are most often auto-mucks except from the button or CO when it is folded around. Am I missing opportunities with these 1-2-3 gap suited cards?

This may belong in the beginner's forum. I'm sorry if that is the case, but it is HE specific.

[uuDevil]

KTs is better than KQo and AJo in the Pokerroom EV stats (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10), which do represent "how the game is really played."

According to pokerroom, in a 10 handed limit hold'em game KTs is worth 0.15 BB while AJo and KQo are worth .10 BB (averaged over all positions).

[waffle]

I think MJ's EV chart is based off of a player's database of "real hands" being played.

Also, Ed Miller notes in SSH ("The Importance of Being Suited") that flushes don't happen very often with suited hands, but they pay off largely when they do.

[Compit]

One more question:

I assume that these numbers reflect results from both limit and no limit games (or perhaps just limit; I don't know anything about the spread at Poker Room).

Would you expect NL results to differ from limit games? I would think the suited hands win alot more in limit.

Thanks for the replies..

[Sponger15SB]

how accurate are these EV things though, I mean is 22 really -EV in every position except 2, or are people just so bad at playing it, that they just always always always play them, and then see it to the river?

you'd think at least some hands would be very EV if played by good players.

[Sponger15SB]

like look at A2s

it goes from being +.03 to -.10 to 0.00 in positions 7, 8, 9

that doesn't make any sense

also, i think i might start playing 73o, but only in 9th position, as it has a 0 EV, i figure what the hell.

[mrjetguy]

I think that it's important that the ev of a starting hand depends largely on the player. One starting hand for a pro might be equal in ev to another. While for a novice one of the hands might be substantially lower ev. For example: Axs is often considered hard for novice players to play correctly.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
KTs is better than KQo and AJo in the Pokerroom EV stats (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10), which do represent "how the game is really played."

[/ QUOTE ]

You should not trust the PokerRoom EV stats.

As you know, they are a collection of the EV of various hands played by the players on their site throughout the day.

If only 5-10% of online Hold'em players are +EV players, then about 90-95% of the numbers that are used to generate those stats come from losing players. This is not exactly reliable information.

That being said, I don't know if KTs is really better than KQo, but I can't imagine it being better than AJo.

[Piers]

These are the result from real money games played at Poker Room. https://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue

What you see is what actually happened. I think the PokerRoom stats are one of the best sources of data for studying pre flop play, however if you are not able to analyse statistics objectively then you are likely to get very confused by them.