Party 3/6 with KTs...follow SSH or HEFAP?

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Somewhat loose-aggressive table. Bison is in the BB. No read on MP1.

Preflop: chesspain is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, chesspain...???

Although I imagine that Ed would state that I should simply bet here, following the advice in HEFAP would lead me to check behind, since I would hate to have to call a checkraise...what do all of you think?

[Michael Davis]

Are you going to call the river unimproved if you check the turn?

-Michael

[TheHip41]

Since this is heads up, I bet this. Even if you get raised, you have about 10 clean outs to improve. You want them to fold 55, or KQ. Bet, force them unto a decision.

Derek

[cold_cash]

Heads up I think I'd bet it.

There's got to be at least a decent chance he'll fold, right?

[Ralph Wiggum]

I think you go w/ HEFAP. The board hasn't really changed much. One reason, that I believe Ed may advocate betting, is that the opponent may fold. Whatever caused MP1 to call your bet on the flop whether a draw, Ace or Jack, not much has changed on the turn. I take the free card and hope to spike a winner.

*Edit: I give this advice know HEFAP isn't as hip anymore.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you going to call the river unimproved if you check the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

No responding to questions with a question. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Alexthegreat]

I would bet.....If he folds, it's good news for you...if he check raises, you still have a huge draw, and if you make it, you will be able to raise the river, earning you a total of 4 BB from him.....

The times he check/calls and you miss you spend 1 BB to see a showdown (if you choose to check behind on the river)

The times he check/folds, you win the pot outright

I think betting is the best idea here, but that is because I don't mind getting check-raised on this kind of draw.....

[balkii]

You have to bet here. For these reaons:

- You very possibly hold the best hand, and would like a free showdown on the river
- He might fold a better hand, or fold a hand that could beat you on the river if you do have the best hand
- You have a monster draw, don't sweat getting checkraised

[sthief09]

I agree 100%, especially with the first thing about getting a free showdown on the river, rather than checking and calling a river bet.

[Michael Davis]

"No responding to questions with a question."

Why not?

-Michael

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: chesspain is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, chesspain calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11.66 BB, between MP1 and chesspain.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by chesspain (11.66 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 has 7s 3s (three of a kind, sevens).
chesspain has Kc Tc (flush, king high).
Outcome: chesspain wins 11.66 BB. </font>

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
"No responding to questions with a question."

Why not?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

See the results I just posted.

[TheHip41]

lol, 3s7s, lol

[Alobar]

am I the only one who doesnt raise this PF?

[xerostar]

I would probably NEVER raise with this hand in a 10-person table....no matter how crazy or loose everyone is.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
am I the only one who doesnt raise this PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

With one limper in front of me and only four players left to act after me, I think that this is an easy raise.

[Alobar]

"only 4 players", thats like half the table /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ponks]

I raise there here a lot of the time as well, and my PFR isnt nearly as high as some others (7.90). I think its okay.

Ponks

[jacki]

Maybe I'm dumb, but is this preflop raise OK?

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
am I the only one who doesnt raise this PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

With one limper in front of me and only four players left to act after me, I think that this is an easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect this might seriously be the kind of reasoning that is making you lose at 2/4.

[spamuell]

I would say this is an easy bet here, given your monster draw you really don't care about getting check-raised.

A much harder decision is if you have K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, multiway I definitely check here but HU there may be a good chance that your opponent will fold. The pot isn't very big here so I still check, there must be a point where the size of the pot gets to such a level that betting is correct, but I have no idea what it is.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably NEVER raise with this hand in a 10-person table....no matter how crazy or loose everyone is.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just silly. If it's folded the CO/Button it's an easy open-raise. If it's folded to the SB and they complete, it's a raise from the BB. With limpers in front I would raise this from 2-off and the CO to try to buy the button.

This can't be the kind of thing that makes or breaks you at 2/4.

[Nate tha' Great]

Very easy check on the turn:

1) An opponent who calls the flop against a preflop raiser when specifically an Ace comes on the board is likely to have a hand that beats king-high.
2) Party Poker players love to check-raise when the board pairs on the turn. He will check-raise with better hands, with better hands that he thinks are worse hands (e.g. a pair of Jacks), as well as with some worse hands.
3) Party Poker players do not like to make tough folds.
4) The pot is not large enough, and you do not have enough of a hand, to worry about catching a bluff. Note also that the K, J and T suited are all accounted for, and if he has the A suited, you're way behind anyway. The only plausible suited hands that he could have that you beat are Q9s and 98s. Even 87s isn't possible here.
5) You absolutely have to call a check-raise and the size of the check-raise is large relative to the size of the pot.

This is a textbook turn check and a very easy fold on the river if you do not improve. I mean, literally, if I were to write a book about Hold 'Em, and I were to include a section about when to bet when last to act heads up on the turn and when to check behind, this hand would be just about the perfect example of a spot where you want to check behind. Y'all should think about this one more carefully.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Y'all should think about this one more carefully.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have, I was wrong. I twodimed this and you don't actually make your hand nearly as often as I thought, meaning that a bet or check-raise relative to the size of the pot is much more of an issue.

Good post, I think this is a leak of mine, I tend to bet the turn a very large amount of the time HU when it's unlikely that my opponent will fold due to the board texture.

Thanks.

[chesspain]

Nate,

Excellent post. BTW, some people don't like the PF raise--what do you think about it?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

Excellent post. BTW, some people don't like the PF raise--what do you think about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is gOOt. You are only two off the Button. Raising one probably loose player with KTs and position puts you in a very solid place and I don't see what incentive there is to overlimp and let the two players who have position on you see the flop for cheap or the blinds see it for free.