Bet or check this turn?

[Tosh]

Does the 2 give a different answer than, say a 9?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
CO checks.

[BottlesOf]

Interesting. I wouldn't ordinarily 3-bet this flop. Wanna talk about it?

[sthief09]

CO took a strange line on the flop. he check-raised a player to the left of him. the fact that there were 2 folds and then he raised when it got heads up makes it look like BS to me. I'd still choose to call him down once it gets raised, but I'd expect to win.

Why'd you 3-bet if you're unsure whether to bet the turn? Do you plan to check behind on the river?

Regardless you have to bet the turn, and I'd bet the river too. I'd bet any card here too. An A is scary but it could get him to stop drawing, and he could check-raise with it, giving you an easy fold.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Wanna talk about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I think there's a good chance my hand is good still. He could have nothing and be putting me on overcards because I raised, or he could easily be raising A5 or the like. Of course I could well be up against many hands that beat me too.

[BottlesOf]

Yeah that's an interesting turn too. Normally, I'd say bet. I think I'm still saying bet here, but with the added outs, getting c'rd isn't as fun. You know what, I'm saying bet, and don't get checkraised, you gotta knock out overs...

[cold_cash]

I think after 3-betting the flop you're better off betting the turn no matter what comes off, so I would probably bet.

(However, I think the 2 is better for obvious reasons; the most important one being that it's not an overcard to your pair.)

I think the river play in this hand going to be especially insightful.

[sthief09]

so you want him to stop drawing, as opposed to bluffing into you?

[Tosh]

My original plan was to end it quickly either way. If he's bluffing, get him out because he could well have 6 outs still. If he has me beat bet the turn, get check raised and muck. I'd bet both streets if he didn't check raise. Then the 2 threw me a little, I was torn between protecting a vulnerable hand and displeasure at getting check raised when I would have to call, and after I got there I may even have to call the river.

[MortalNuts]

Hi Tosh --

I probably bet here, even though the 2 means you have outs that force you to call a checkraise. IME, typical players are just a lot more likely to fold hands here that are drawing live against you (which you like) than they are to check-raise (which you don't like). Obviously if you had some reason to believe this player was different and especially prone to check-raising or especially not prone to folding, a check would be better. But as a default I bet.

I think you'd have a very clear bet if the 9 fell instead, because you have an insta-fold if he checkraises and because a bet is still by default good as long as you're still plausibly ahead. Plus fun. Did I mention betting is fun?

As an aside, I sometimes just call the flop raise and then raise any turn card, planning to check behind on the river.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[daveymck]

I'm more interested in the preflop raise as my line would have been to call here, was the aim to get heads up with the first limper ?(assuming the CO has trash like the blinds).

[arkady]

you have to raise here, because calling is a rather mistake. By calling you are inviting the mathematically worst number of players into the pot for a vulnerable hand like 66. You don't quite have the set equity to be calling and winning UI against 4 people is very difficult. By raising you are at least giving the chance of knocking out CO and the blinds making this a HU affair where with position you are a big favorite.

[arkady]

My line would be bet for sure, see if you check here you are going to be facing a bet on the river a huge portion of the time. By 3 betting here I am commiting myself to showdown and since I do not want to be facing a difficult decision on the river I am betting on the turn.

Like you pointed out giving a free card can also be a potential disaster.

Folding to a raise on the turn is a given.

[Tosh]

Folding to a turn raise is definitely an error.

[chesspain]

I think I would bet the turn, since the likelihood of him checkraising you with a hand as "weak" as Tx seems pretty slim given the aggression that you've already shown. You certainly would like him to fold here, whereas it isn't catastrophic if you have to call a checkraise--merely very unpleasant /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[Tosh]

I do agree here, I think the fact that even the most random of hands probably have 6 outs against me, outweighs the other factors.

[Tosh]

I went into mega panic mode on the turn and made the error of checking the turn. River was an 8, I bet and he folded.