What's My Line? Completely Lost... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

sthief09

09-09-2004, 03:01 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)

what if:
- it comes to me 1 bet
- it comes to me for 2 bets

my plan was to check raise if the button bet and fold if there was a bet and 2+ callers or a bet and a raise. part of me actually wanted to check-fold

J.R.

09-09-2004, 03:08 PM

"my plan was to check raise if the button bet and fold if there was a bet and 2+ callers or a bet and a raise. part of me actually wanted to check-fold"

Me to. I think this is a spot where you should be looking to fold unless things look favorably as opposed to looking to play unless things unfold unfavorably.

But folding getting "if there was a bet and 2+ callers" is bad as you have odds to draw to a set, and as the board is paired the fact you don't hold the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is neutralized.

BottlesOf

09-09-2004, 03:09 PM

You can't fold under any circumstances if it's only one bet to you. That pot is....big.

Your earlier reasoning sounds fine, plan to c/r. If it's two bets to you, probably fold. I don't think betting out is wise.

But, A bet and 2+ (let's say 3) callers??

That's over 24:1, you can't fold that!

sthief09

09-09-2004, 03:11 PM

yeah I forgot I had odds to fill up. at the time I would've realized that and called. I'm glad that you liked my line though.

Victor

09-09-2004, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my plan was to check raise if the button bet and fold if there was a bet and 2+ callers

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
part of me actually wanted to check-fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude,

Dont fold for 1 measly small bet into 20 bet pot. Seriously.

Heres your line:

1. Checkraise if the button bets and call his 3-bet. Fold if you dont improve on the turn.

2. Check and call if its only 1 bet back to you. The more callers the better really.

3. Fold if there is a bet and a raise.

Your last 2 posts are scaring me. Especially this one. Maybe you dont see huge pots like this a lot.

Garland

09-09-2004, 03:16 PM

Personally, I would have just called the button's raise preflop. He's not on a steal with 3 limpers to him, and unless you feel you can blow away the other players between you and button with a 3-bet, then it doesn't accomplish much. You're going to be out of position dealing with 5 players with what is most likely going to be an unfavorable flop. In addition you may not have the best hand. Button capping invariably means he has AK or most likely a big pair. There's a small chance he'd have AQ.

If it comes back to you for one bet, you'd have to call for the pot odds alone. There are over 20 bets in the pot to catch your 10 on the turn. If it comes back to you for 2, then fold.

Garland

Bob T.

09-09-2004, 03:18 PM

If it is going to be one bet, you need to see the turn, because you have the odds here to try and spike a ten. Beyond that, I suspect that you are behind, and that you won't be able to get anyone off of any of their hands, so you probably want to play this as cheaply as possible, but still stay in the pot, because it is huge.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 03:30 PM

if you think I shouldn't be 3-betting TT after 3 limpers and a raise, then you're out of your mind.

Garland

09-09-2004, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you think I shouldn't be 3-betting TT after 3 limpers and a raise, then you're out of your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain exactly why you want to 3-bet?

a) You feel you have the best hand and for preflop equity.
b) You want information from the button.
c) You want other limpers to fold and increase your chances of winning.
d) You want limpers to make monster mistakes by calling 2 more cold with inferior hands.
e) Other

Obviously you got b) and d) but not c). Heck, button make 4-bet on any 2 cards just to gambol meaning you don't get information at all.

In "sane" games, if I feel I can get the 3 other limper players to fold, then it's a fine play. But it's not happening at Party $3/$6. You might get more dead money in there, but I don't think you improved your chances of winning.

Garland

Evan

09-09-2004, 04:09 PM

All of the reasons you listed make this an easy 3 bet. I think you're letting the fact that the button capped it cloud your thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
Heck, button make 4-bet on any 2 cards just to gambol meaning you don't get information at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think this is true for any reason than it makes it an even easier reraise. Are you honestly telling me you wouldn't gladly cap with TT against a maniac? If you wouldn't than you need to get a lot more aggressive.

Garland

09-09-2004, 04:33 PM

Perhaps this is correct and my thinking is clouded, but precisely what pair would you stop 3-betting with? I know in his situation, I would 3-bet with JJ, but call with 1010.

What exactly is the cut-off line with pairs between calling and 3-betting with 3 limpers and a late raiser? For example, if he had 99 in SB would 3-betting still be correct with 3 limpers and a late position raiser?

Garland

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 04:42 PM

Hi,

Why to 3 bet with TT out of the blinds in this *specific* situation.

d) To get more dead money into the pot.

You probably have the 3 limpers all dominated and you're probably are ahead of the LP raiser, you'd have a LOT of the posters in this forum dominated even as a bunch of us, me included, will raise for 'value' with 2 suited broadways in this position. You want as much money in preflop so that when you bet and they wiff and fold on the flop you get the most value.

Change this to an tight EP raise and 3 CC, and I agree, a 3 bet is out of order from the blinds with TT. You probably are not dominating all of the CC or the EP raiser.

Thanks,
MarkV.

Michael Davis

09-09-2004, 05:28 PM

Too much money to check fold for one bet here, even if one of your Ts is tainted.

I like the checkraise, but I'm done if I get more than one coldcaller. I'm still calling one bet here no matter what.

-Michael

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 05:29 PM

Hi,

I'm a LAG, so I bet the flop to see what everone else thought of it. I've seen the oddest hands, at 3/6, raise 3 limpers and cap that I'm not yet convinced I'm behind yet. Now if they want to continue to raise me I'll be pursuaded I'm behind and gladly fold my TT.

I don't want to CR, because if they all call what does that mean? They have 2 clubs? a gutshot? a 9? a Q? A scared JJ/KK? 2 overs? So do bet the turn? No Q is folding into this massive pot. I check the turn? Give everyone a free card or fold if they bet into my obvious show of weakness? So this can't be right.

I don't want to CR because I'm going to get 3 bet 100% of the time I'm behind and just called even when I am still behind! CR is always the wrong answer I think.

Check/calling is just going to cost us money when we are behind given the position of the other raiser to us. We get put on the installment plan when/if one the limpers CR on any of the streets with their 9x/Qx/Draws.

I think check raising is the worst in line probably followed by check/calling.

If you check/folded here, you'd probably not be giving up much if any EV as you're almost always drawing to your 2 outer that isn't always going to be good, but its going to cost you money to find that out.

MarkV.

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 05:30 PM

Hi,

TT is the cutoff that most people use. At least in 3/6 you will be dominating most if not all of the limpers and probably ahead of a LP raiser.

Thanks,
MarkV.

Evan

09-09-2004, 05:32 PM

TT is probably my cutoff here. Don't be surprised if sthief tells you it's 99.

daveymck

09-09-2004, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TT is probably my cutoff here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

joker122

09-09-2004, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Too much money to check fold for one bet here, even if one of your Ts is tainted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that the board is paired.

daveymck

09-09-2004, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

I'm a LAG, so I bet the flop to see what everone else thought of it. I've seen the oddest hands, at 3/6, raise 3 limpers and cap that I'm not yet convinced I'm behind yet. Now if they want to continue to raise me I'll be pursuaded I'm behind and gladly fold my TT.

I don't want to CR, because if they all call what does that mean? They have 2 clubs? a gutshot? a 9? a Q? A scared JJ/KK? 2 overs? So do bet the turn? No Q is folding into this massive pot. I check the turn? Give everyone a free card or fold if they bet into my obvious show of weakness? So this can't be right.

I don't want to CR because I'm going to get 3 bet 100% of the time I'm behind and just called even when I am still behind! CR is always the wrong answer I think.

Check/calling is just going to cost us money when we are behind given the position of the other raiser to us. We get put on the installment plan when/if one the limpers CR on any of the streets with their 9x/Qx/Draws.

I think check raising is the worst in line probably followed by check/calling.

If you check/folded here, you'd probably not be giving up much if any EV as you're almost always drawing to your 2 outer that isn't always going to be good, but its going to cost you money to find that out.

MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line.

joker122

09-09-2004, 05:49 PM

I don't. Betting the flop to see how everyone likes it is pointless because 1. everyone is calling one bet here with almost any holding because of the pot size and 2. the button will raise this flop close to 100% of the time.

A checkraise is much more effective.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 05:51 PM

right when the flop came out I said to myself "I'm posting this." I'm only posting results because everyone likes results.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Button raises, Hero folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Button calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 16.16 BB
Main Pot: 16.16 BB, between MP1 and Button. > Pot won by Button (16.16 BB).

Results in white below:
MP1 has Tc 8c (three of a kind, nines).
Button has Ah Kh (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Button wins 16.16 BB.

joker122

09-09-2004, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to CR, because if they all call what does that mean? They have 2 clubs? a gutshot? a 9? a Q? A scared JJ/KK? 2 overs? So do bet the turn? No Q is folding into this massive pot. I check the turn? Give everyone a free card or fold if they bet into my obvious show of weakness? So this can't be right.

I don't want to CR because I'm going to get 3 bet 100% of the time I'm behind and just called even when I am still behind! CR is always the wrong answer I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting this flop has all the mishap you claim checkraisng will produce but on a magnified level.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 05:57 PM

what does betting accomplish? I don't chase anyone out, I'm probably behind, and I'm going to end up having to pay 2 bets anyway. I either want to get out cheap or draw to my boat.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 05:59 PM

exactly. everyone is calling 1 bet, including Jx, Kx, and Ax.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 06:05 PM

I didn't expect to get information. I wanted to hopefully drive someone out, which will increase my equity, I'm almost getting set value, and my equity is great.

sthief09

09-09-2004, 06:06 PM

I almost never 3-bet a protected raise with 99

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 06:30 PM

Hi,

No, the button does not raise close to 100% and the limpers do not call here 100% of the time. Sometimes they raise some times they call sometimes they fold.

By your logic your CR gains no information either. As no one is folding getting getting 1:10 on their money either.

By CR you reopen the action to allow button to 3 bet or one of the limpers who planned on CR the button now gets to 3 bet and button could cap. Not something we want when we really wanted a cheap turn card.

So your CR can't protect your hand because the pot is to big and and opens you up to putting MORE money into the pot when burried.

Betting out will almost always freeze out a raise from the limpers, if it doesn't and button 3 bets, you are burried and folding is prudent.

When you bet out and the button raises, you will almost NEVER be 3 bet by a limper so you get to see the turn for 1BB which is probably the cheapest we could see it for unless the limpers are just that passive.

Like I said, somedays I'm a lag, somedays I'm not. I check/fold here about as often as I bet/call raise and fold if I dont hit my backdoor str8 or a ten and someone bets the turn.

Thanks,
MarkV.

Alobar

09-09-2004, 06:44 PM

I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't like the checkraise line either. A checkraise isnt really going to drive any out that you want out. No 9 Q or overpair (with the small exception of maybe JJ) is going to fold. Anyone with a gutshot will still be getting the odds to call. If the button has AK (really one of the very few hands you are ahead of here) it wont matter if someone else folds an A or a K, because he will call one more bet when it gets back to him anyway.

I don't think its 100% certain the button raises here, you 3 bet PF so he has to respect that. Now if you had just called PF and then bet out I think a Raise by the button is 100%.

I would bet out here mostly because with these kind of flops it always gets raised by some douche he thinks he can bluff with the board being paired and 2 clubs. I bet out because if I check and one of the limpers bets then the button most likely raises and then I'm folding. If you are comited to putting 2 bets in with a c/r you are better of in this situation betting out yourself and then calling if there is a raise, then checking and having to fold the best hand when it comes back to you at 2 bets.

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 06:45 PM

Hi,

See one of my other replies about how betting out can freeze out a raise from one of the limpers for fear of a 3 bet from button or if one of the limpers raise it can freeze out a raise from the button.

Its to bad you posted the results so soon as its going to taint the rest of the discussion.

Thanks,
MarkV.

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 06:56 PM

Hi,

If you bet out and only the button raises nobody else will be raising and you effectively close the action.

If you CR 4 other people could 3 bet. I'll wager you get 3 bet more often when you CR then you do bet out.

Thanks,
MarkV.

MVicuna

09-09-2004, 07:07 PM

Hi,

You are not trying to protect your hand! You are trying to manage the betting action so you don't get pushed out of pot with only *one* over card and correct pot odds to hit your FH / backdoor str8.

You are trying to freeze raises from the limpers who might use the button to protect their hands by making everyone else call 2 cold. So you use the threat of a 3 bet by you when button raises to freeze out their attempt to use button to protect their hand.

Thanks,
MarkV.

Alobar

09-09-2004, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

You are not trying to protect your hand! You are trying to manage the betting action so you don't get pushed out of pot with only *one* over card and correct pot odds to hit your FH / backdoor str8.

You are trying to freeze raises from the limpers who might use the button to protect their hands by making everyone else call 2 cold. So you use the threat of a 3 bet by you when button raises to freeze out their attempt to use button to protect their hand.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly